Minimum tenon thickness

[sliprock]

I have a customer that's bringing me a shaft to replace the ferrule. I haven't seen the shaft yet, but from the phone conversation, it sounds like the last "repairman" wittled the tenon down so that a 5/16 threaded ferrule would slide over the tenon, and then used lots of epoxy to fill any gaps between the two. My question is, What do you consider the minimum diameter of a tenon to be where the tenon is strong enough to hold up to normal playing conditions?

I can replace the tenon, but I'd like to cut this guy some slack because the guy that "fixed" his cue last time, broke the original tenon, and then just "wittled" out a new tenon leaving the guy's shaft an inch shorter.

Thanks.

 

[blud]

bad move

I have a customer that's bringing me a shaft to replace the ferrule. I haven't seen the shaft yet, but from the phone conversation, it sounds like the last "repairman" wittled the tenon down so that a 5/16 threaded ferrule would slide over the tenon, and then used lots of epoxy to fill any gaps between the two. My question is, What do you consider the minimum diameter of a tenon to be where the tenon is strong enough to hold up to normal playing conditions?

I can replace the tenon, but I'd like to cut this guy some slack because the guy that "fixed" his cue last time, broke the original tenon, and then just "wittled" out a new tenon leaving the guy's shaft an inch shorter.

Thanks.

Hi Slip,

Sounds like another guy working on cues and doesn't know what he's doing. If you ever break a tenon, simply machine the old shoulder flat, center drill and drill a .300" hole about 2" deep. Then machine a dowel the same size, score it cross ways and long ways, for glue, and make it 2-7/8"long. Then you can cut new threads, 5/16" X 18, or whatever.No need to cut the shaft off. Some guys us a 5/16 X 18 nut to cut the threads. If you do this, machine your tenon [ sticking out] down to .292", and turn the shaft in a lathe and hold the nut with an open end wrench and wind it up on the new tenon. I grind my threads. But some don't have this type of machinery.

Best thing you could do is have a new shaft built for your customer. Might cost you a few bucks, but you save a customer. Maybe your customer can get the so-called cue guy to pay for it.

Call me if need be and I'll walk you through it.
830-232-5991
blud

 

[Michael Webb]

My question is, What do you consider the minimum diameter of a tenon to be where the tenon is strong enough to hold up to normal

Thanks.

Minimum with 5 minute epoxy because it's thick. You can get away with .275 if you have to.

 

[sliprock]

Hi Slip,

Sounds like another guy working on cues and doesn't know what he's doing. If you ever break a tenon, simply machine the old shoulder flat, center drill and drill a .300" hole about 2" deep. Then machine a dowel the same size, score it cross ways and long ways, for glue, and make it 2-7/8"long. Then you can cut new threads, 5/16" X 18, or whatever.No need to cut the shaft off. Some guys us a 5/16 X 18 nut to cut the threads. If you do this, machine your tenon [ sticking out] down to .292", and turn the shaft in a lathe and hold the nut with an open end wrench and wind it up on the new tenon. I grind my threads. But some don't have this type of machinery.

Best thing you could do is have a new shaft built for your customer. Might cost you a few bucks, but you save a customer. Maybe your customer can get the so-called cue guy to pay for it.

Call me if need be and I'll walk you through it.
830-232-5991
blud

Thanks for the advice Blud.
I may offer to make this guy a shaft at a discounted price to hopefully gain a new customer. I doubt that he'll have any luck getting the other guy to pay anything.

Do you consider the 5/16 threaded tenon the smallest size to be structually sound? I hadn't thought of it before talking to this guy, but would a ferrule and tenon threaded for 1/4x20 or something in between be too small?
Thanks again.

 

[blud]

just right

Thanks for the advice Blud.
I may offer to make this guy a shaft at a discounted price to hopefully gain a new customer. I doubt that he'll have any luck getting the other guy to pay anything.

Do you consider the 5/16 threaded tenon the smallest size to be structually sound? I hadn't thought of it before talking to this guy, but would a ferrule and tenon threaded for 1/4x20 or something in between be too small?
Thanks again.

Slip,

5/16 X 18, threads is just right. Any thing smaller could break off, when breaking or just playing.
You might have to experment a little with the tenon size. Maybe go a little smaller. I make mine as mentioned eariler.Works good for me.You want the ferrule to thread on smoothly, and not be hard to thread on. I also use elmer/white/glue. Put some on the sides of the tenon, only. Once you start threading it on, do not stop, or you will have to build another tenon. This glue is very fast setting.You can us epoxy, but do not get it on the face of the ferrule, because it will show a glue line.White glues just fine to use.
Call me if need be.
rock-on
blud

 

[macguy]

Hi Slip,

Sounds like another guy working on cues and doesn't know what he's doing. If you ever break a tenon, simply machine the old shoulder flat, center drill and drill a .300" hole about 2" deep. Then machine a dowel the same size, score it cross ways and long ways, for glue, and make it 2-7/8"long. Then you can cut new threads, 5/16" X 18, or whatever.No need to cut the shaft off. Some guys us a 5/16 X 18 nut to cut the threads. If you do this, machine your tenon [ sticking out] down to .292", and turn the shaft in a lathe and hold the nut with an open end wrench and wind it up on the new tenon. I grind my threads. But some don't have this type of machinery.

Best thing you could do is have a new shaft built for your customer. Might cost you a few bucks, but you save a customer. Maybe your customer can get the so-called cue guy to pay for it.

Call me if need be and I'll walk you through it.
830-232-5991
blud

If everything else is OK with the shaft I don't think there is any reason a good repair won't last and make the shaft good as new. I do the repair almost the same as you but a little different. After cleaning up the end of the shaft, I drill a 5/16 hole about 1 1/4 inches deep. Then I take a piece of maple usually a piece of an old shaft, (I never throw anything away) and turn down a dowel on it to match the hole. I only turn part of it down the length of the hole leaving the rest what ever size it was. The I glue it in and put it aside. Later I cut a new tenon on the piece I have added to 11/32. When I do this what I do is cut down on to the original shaft 1/16 of an inch past the glue line. When I fit the new ferrule it will cross this joint area when seated. You now have a mechanically stronger fix then if you just glue in a tenon and mount a ferrule. I would not be surprised if it was not stronger then the original unbroken ferrule. You have two strengthening points, the shoulder of the new tenon in to the smaller hole and the bridge effect of the new ferrule to the joint you have created. I have used this method for many years with out a failure. You can make the new ferrule a 1/16 of an inch longer if that is a issue to make up for having to cut a little down on to the shaft. I am thick skinned and open minded, if anyone see an improved way to do this, please brain storm.

 

[hadjcues]

What about replacing the tenon with a different wood dowel aside from maple, maybe something more dense to make it hit differently? Has anyone tried this?

 

[blud]

shaft

If everything else is OK with the shaft I don't think there is any reason a good repair won't last and make the shaft good as new. I do the repair almost the same as you but a little different. After cleaning up the end of the shaft, I drill a 5/16 hole about 1 1/4 inches deep. Then I take a piece of maple usually a piece of an old shaft, (I never throw anything away) and turn down a dowel on it to match the hole. I only turn part of it down the length of the hole leaving the rest what ever size it was. The I glue it in and put it aside. Later I cut a new tenon on the piece I have added to 11/32. When I do this what I do is cut down on to the original shaft 1/16 of an inch past the glue line. When I fit the new ferrule it will cross this joint area when seated. You now have a mechanically stronger fix then if you just glue in a tenon and mount a ferrule. I would not be surprised if it was not stronger then the original unbroken ferrule. You have two strengthening points, the shoulder of the new tenon in to the smaller hole and the bridge effect of the new ferrule to the joint you have created. I have used this method for many years with out a failure. You can make the new ferrule a 1/16 of an inch longer if that is a issue to make up for having to cut a little down on to the shaft. I am thick skinned and open minded, if anyone see an improved way to do this, please brain storm.

Macguy,

I don't see why you need to cut the length down by a, 1/16th. No need unless the shoulder is damaged. Keep the ferrule the same original lenght. [ the cue will play close to as original this way]..

All needed is just "skim shave", the shoulder a few thousandts, maybe .004 to .006....Not much, just clean up the old glue surface. That will take care of it.

The reason I use a .300 tenon, is you got plenty of beef left around the newly installed tenon, on the outter dia., of the shaft..[ some guys have small shafts and or have them cut down or wear them down. Were only talking of .012.5 thousandts, but that's a lot with a smaller dia., shaft.

I see no purpose to have a 5/16 tenon, when your going to cut it down to about .292, before threading. It will only be as strong as it's smallest dia., [The weakest link].

I also go deeper to have a better bond, and a solid hit for the new tenon. I also use old shaft wood for these tenons. When I drill the hole for the new tenon, I, put a collect on the shaft, so there's no chance of splitting, spreading, and or stretching the wood. No need to take a chance. Just takes maybe 30 seconds longer, and your safe for drilling, at whatever depth you choose..

As far as a stronger joint, how can it be any stronger to cross the joint area? [I assume your speaking of the ferrules base]? It's still got a new tenon, and the shaft will be the same lenght, provided there was no damage to the shafts shoulder, that the ferrule faces up to?

blud

 

[blud]

why?

What about replacing the tenon with a different wood dowel aside from maple, maybe something more dense to make it hit differently? Has anyone tried this?

hadjcues,

why mess up a good cue with something differant? I just use seasoned maple dowels for maple shafts.
blud

 

[macguy]

Macguy,

I don't see why you need to cut the length down by a, 1/16th. No need unless the shoulder is damaged. Keep the ferrule the same original lenght. [ the cue will play close to as original this way]..

All needed is just "skim shave", the shoulder a few thousandts, maybe .004 to .006....Not much, just clean up the old glue surface. That will take care of it.

The reason I use a .300 tenon, is you got plenty of beef left around the newly installed tenon, on the outter dia., of the shaft..[ some guys have small shafts and or have them cut down or wear them down. Were only talking of .012.5 thousandts, but that's a lot with a smaller dia., shaft.

I see no purpose to have a 5/16 tenon, when your going to cut it down to about .292, before threading. It will only be as strong as it's smallest dia., [The weakest link].

I also go deeper to have a better bond, and a solid hit for the new tenon. I also use old shaft wood for these tenons. When I drill the hole for the new tenon, I, put a collect on the shaft, so there's no chance of splitting, spreading, and or stretching the wood. No need to take a chance. Just takes maybe 30 seconds longer, and your safe for drilling, at whatever depth you choose..

As far as a stronger joint, how can it be any stronger to cross the joint area? [I assume your speaking of the ferrules base]? It's still got a new tenon, and the shaft will be the same lenght, provided there was no damage to the shafts shoulder, that the ferrule faces up to?

blud

I think I may not have made myself that clear. After it is glued in I now have a chunk of wood sticking out I am going to cut the new tenon from. I don't cut it to 5/16 but 11/32 that is my standard tenon on my shafts. I just like a beefier tenon. In the case of the repair the tenon has a shoulder because it is going into a smaller hole. Even if one was not to do the cut down on to the shaft as I do, I think they should still make the piece to be the new tenon as a chunk they cut down to be more precision instead of just a dowel. It is like cutting a new tenon on a new shaft.

 

[blud]

ok

I think I may not have made myself that clear. After it is glued in I now have a chunk of wood sticking out I am going to cut the new tenon from. I don't cut it to 5/16 but 11/32 that is my standard tenon on my shafts. I just like a beefier tenon. In the case of the repair the tenon has a shoulder because it is going into a smaller hole. Even if one was not to do the cut down on to the shaft as I do, I think they should still make the piece to be the new tenon as a chunk they cut down to be more precision instead of just a dowel. It is like cutting a new tenon on a new shaft.

Mac,

No dis-respect meant my friend.

I do understand what your saying. I have a differant method and opinion, that's all.

My internal dowel is larger by a few thousandts over the new threaded tenon sticking out.

I don't agree with making a shoulder on the tenon, to face up to the machined flat face of the shaft.

The shoulder on the shaft is the same as when built new and of one piece. no way to make it stronger, because, It's like I said eariler, it's only as strong as it's smallest dia., size. And that's right at the base of the ferrule, or the face of the shaft..

The integerty of the shaft is still in tack when i get done. It's not shorter, and or has a longer ferrule, [,wasn't meant to have a longer ferrule, so why do it when it's not nessesary?], and it dosen't have thinner walls at the base of the ferrule for 1-1/4" or 2", because of it's dowels or tenon size.

It's got heavier walls, than your method. Heavier wall thichness means more strenght.The dowel is inserted in the shaft a little deeper so it will not split the wood as easily, if struck on the side, [ mis-cue, or abuse ], which happens from time to time with some players.

I do my best to make it as it once was, [if not better], as the cuemaker made it.A bigger dowel only weakens the wall thichness of the shaft. A bigger dowel, in my case would not add anything to the strenght of the tenon, or cue. You still have a small thread, of 5/16, that's threaded into the ferrule, and about .292 on the threaded tenon.

The dowel and or tenon is only as strong as it's smallest dia...

A good rule of thumb, when threading wood, is to make your thread length, 3 times the dia., of the intended threads. Any thing more will be a waist.

It's appears that you prefer a thinner wall ferrule than most cuemakers. I tired that a long time ago, and had trouble with them splitting, on the sides.

Good responce MAC. Enjoyed reading about your meothods.

Blud

 

[Michael Webb]

What about replacing the tenon with a different wood dowel aside from maple, maybe something more dense to make it hit differently? Has anyone tried this?

If you use some thing more dense say hello to Mr. Deflection.

 

[Tommy-D]

Odd repair methods

> There used to be a guy that hung around Memphis/Arkansas called Cue Tip Dale. I asked him about methods used to rethread the tenon after removing the ferrule,wanting to experiment on an old shaft and develop my own repair skills. This was before I ever thought about using a heat gun to break the glue bond and unscrewing it,thus nothing left in the threads but molten glue,before this I always thought you just turned the old ferrule down to nothing,leaving the original threaded tenon and cleaning up. He said what he did was cut the old ferrule,tenon and all off flat,drill and bore a 1" deep hole at .285,tapped 5/16-18 threads,then threaded in a 1 1/2 titanium screw,and attached the new ferrule to THAT,basically installing the ferrule onto a machine bolt. I quickly dismissed the thought of letting him work on anything I owned. Now that I know volumes more about repairs and actual machining principles and techniques,I still cannot fault that initial judgement. First of all,actually trying to tap threads into a small diameter piece of wood like a shaft,using a standard metalworking tap,is just inviting disaster. While some will argue that it CAN be done in spots such as joint pin installation,I tried this technique on a 9/16 dowel rod. I carefully indicated it,center drilled,and moved my live center in,then turned down a 2" section to .510. I moved the tenon back in the chuck to there was only about .150 sticking out of the chuck,just enough to indicate it. This machine I use is an Enco 7" x 10",with a 3 jaw chuck,modded for repairs by Adam Orr for use in his room Players Billiards in Memphis. Using a normal 5/16-18 plug tap set in my tailstock chuck,and turning the chuck BY HAND while advancing the tailstock slowly,it split EVERY time,in 5 attempts. Had I tried this with my own shaft or God forbid a customers,I would have had to come up off the hip for a replacement,not to mention the embarrassment if the customer had been watching. I am absolutely not saying it can't be done,with a slightly different approach,such as with Cueman's lever action tailstock like on his lathes,or perhaps an undersized tap,I am merely telling you that it is quite risky in my experience. Another problem I have found with his described method,the required tapping depth to produce threads deep enough to accept a 3/4 long screw is a little more than you can probably get with a standard plug type,so he must have used a bottoming tap at some point,considering the taper of the tap might not get the threads near the bottom of the blind hole deep enough to accept the screw. Blud's method combined with Cueman's is what I now use,with no problems,even when doing the larger diameter Meucci type tenon. Tommy D.

 

[Tommy-D]

Oh yeah...

> I completely forgot to mention that using my earlier described method of using a machine bolt to attach the ferrule,another pitfall is the resultant drop in playability,unless you can find a way to make that screw weigh the SAME as the wood you took out when drilling,which is next to impossible without the screw being bored out itself,at some point which it has to fall apart. On the other hand,Thomas Wayne described a method of using a LIGHTER wood such as Alaskan Yellow Cedar as a way to control weather related cracking in ivory ferrules,and a way to get a similar effect as the Predator is his article "Rosabella,Believe",found on Google usually. Tommy D.

 

[blud]

disagree

> I completely forgot to mention that using my earlier described method of using a machine bolt to attach the ferrule,another pitfall is the resultant drop in playability,unless you can find a way to make that screw weigh the SAME as the wood you took out when drilling,which is next to impossible without the screw being bored out itself,at some point which it has to fall apart. On the other hand,Thomas Wayne described a method of using a LIGHTER wood such as Alaskan Yellow Cedar as a way to control weather related cracking in ivory ferrules,and a way to get a similar effect as the Predator is his article "Rosabella,Believe",found on Google usually. Tommy D.

Hi Tommy,

I totally disagree with the guys, idea of using a differant wood, to keep the ivory from cracking.
Woods, maple, ash, or whatever used with cues, "will not" split the ivory from swelling. If you machine the tenons the proper size, no problems. The ivory is much stronger than the woods, being used. Think about it, trying to swell, out-wards, with an ivory ferrule wrapped around it. Won't split it. Weather related cracking of ivory is caused by coming from cold to hot or coming from cold and hitting balls right away, and not letting the ferrule warm up to at least room temp....

I had a call from a top end cuemaker about a year ago. He said that he was having trouble with his ivory joints cracking. Same room temp., never even finished the 6 cues, but all 6 ivory joints cracked. I ask if he made the joints out of the same slug of ivory. His reply was yes, but what's that got to do with it?
All 6 crack, all came from the same slug. DUH! He never said thanks or kiss-it, or whatever. Saw him at a show, had all 6 cues, no cracks, he used a differant plug for the joints. This was not weather related. The ivory had an internal crack from the get go.

Cracks in ivory are at times, very hard to see. You really got to inspect it close. I use a dye, that will clean up, easily.[no, won't tell you guys what it is, so don't ask].

Drilling a hole down the shaft is no way to attach a new tenon.
Especilly one that big.I do know of one very large production company does this. They have no problems, they use a smaller all-thread than what your speaking of.

Any time your making internal threads, with a tap, [which is very easy], it's best to build a collet [ bushing],to fit around the tenon or part of the cue your taping. I do this with handles, noses of the cue, and the back-end of the front, the joint of the shaft. When cutting and threading the tenon for the ferrule, I also have a bushing cupped around the end of the shaft, for extra protection.

These bushings will keep the wood from spliting for internally, and causing a split that shows up now and or later.Even when I grind my internal threads, I push a bushing up on the tenon or cue, just to be on the safe side.

Tapping causes the wood to swell from inside to out. Protect it with a bushing, and you will have no problems..

As far as this cue-tip-guy, PLEASE! Wood butcher, plain and simple, a wood butcher...
blud

 

[cueman]

I have avoided getting in on this one because I will hear the "OH NO, that's not the way to do it." But here goes any way. I have seen cues crack out the side when plugged according to most methods mentioned. The reason is that the ferrule can put side pressure on the tenon. I know you don't like screws in the cue, but you have only mentioned 5/16" screws. Here is what I do. Face off the shaft to get a smooth surface. Drill and tap a 10-32 tpi hole in the cue. Then either glue in a nylon or metal screw, leaving about 5/8" sticking out and 5/8" dowin into the shaft. Next drill and tap 10-32 into a piece of maple and screw it over the screw. Once dry cut down and use a tenon threader to put 5/-18 or .285-18 threads on it. Then I cut the shaft back about 3/32" to a full 5/16 and make sure I counter bore the ferrule to a snug 5/16 fit down there. Thread and glue the ferrule on. Now the reason I like this better is that my shaft wall thickness is much thicker and the short 5/16" shoulder keeps any wiggling from happening that might blow out the side of the cue. Nylon does not change the hit and that small of metal screw barely changes the hit if any. I have had zero comebacks or problems so far doint it this way. More work yes, but I know it is a quality repair when I am done. You can glue up some 5/16" rods of maple onto the 10-32 screws and keep them handy to make the repair much faster once the customer hands you the cue. That is really handy when working tournaments. Now let the critics begin!

 

[blud]

ok

I have avoided getting in on this one because I will hear the "OH NO, that's not the way to do it." But here goes any way. I have seen cues crack out the side when plugged according to most methods mentioned. The reason is that the ferrule can put side pressure on the tenon. I know you don't like screws in the cue, but you have only mentioned 5/16" screws. Here is what I do. Face off the shaft to get a smooth surface. Drill and tap a 10-32 tpi hole in the cue. Then either glue in a nylon or metal screw, leaving about 5/8" sticking out and 5/8" dowin into the shaft. Next drill and tap 10-32 into a piece of maple and screw it over the screw. Once dry cut down and use a tenon threader to put 5/-18 or .285-18 threads on it. Then I cut the shaft back about 3/32" to a full 5/16 and make sure I counter bore the ferrule to a snug 5/16 fit down there. Thread and glue the ferrule on. Now the reason I like this better is that my shaft wall thickness is much thicker and the short 5/16" shoulder keeps any wiggling from happening that might blow out the side of the cue. Nylon does not change the hit and that small of metal screw barely changes the hit if any. I have had zero comebacks or problems so far doint it this way. More work yes, but I know it is a quality repair when I am done. You can glue up some 5/16" rods of maple onto the 10-32 screws and keep them handy to make the repair much faster once the customer hands you the cue. That is really handy when working tournaments. Now let the critics begin!

Hi Chris,

No problem, we will always get along, my friend.

However,I do not agree with your methods, but if it ain't broke,, you know what i mean.

My dowels go down 2", and proturde out 7/8",... [I have never had a cues shaft crack on thge sides with my method].

The shorter depth of a dowel, will allow the sides of the shaft to crack.The face is also 5/16 X 13mm or whatever the mm is for that shaft. Same amount of "bearing surface" but a stronger, more solid tenon with wood for the base of the tenon. Going deeper makes it really strong. Just score the sides of the dowel and glue up.

Then come back and grind or cut your threads. Really solid this way.

Not short, and or small, all-thread, 10 x 32 holding it together. 10 X 32 is really small. [.188"]....
Seating the ferrule and that small of a all thread, will not be as strong as the dowel of .300 protruding from the shafts end.

FAST!
I don't think, "Fast" should come into play here. Repairs takes time, I do not rush because the customer wants me too, or I have other things to do. I just take my time and do it right..If the customer can't wait on prefection, he can go elseware.

I've had a little experence with nylon and metal screws. Nylon gives a little, and also stretches, and metal at the end of the shafts, does add deflection. Tested this about 30 years ago.

I, feel it's better to re-build the shaft, with the original type materials, and return it as close to it's original form.

30 plus years, and it's not broke.

blud

 

[Michael Webb]

Chris:
Sounds like a combonation of Paradise and Viking.

 

[Joseph Cues]

Jon, i deleted the quote as ask.
blud

Thanks Blud.
Jon read it and liked it.

 

[blud]

young

WTF BLUD, that is not a knock, i will quote myself, EVEN YOU BLUD, SAID TO ME (IN PRIVATE COMMUNICATION) THAT AFTER YOU SOLD YOUR BUSINESS TO YOUR SON, AND BOUGHT IT BACK, THAT YOU HAD TO FIX YOUR NAME. Those are your own damn words. If So and so, calls me a dirty son of a bitch, and you hear about it, and post it in the same manner i did, i would not consider that a knock. I DO NOT KNOW YOUR SON, I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM, OTHER THAN WHAT YOU SAID TO ME. SO HOW IS THAT A MOTHER FU#$ING KNOCK?!?!?!

Thanks,

Jon

Jon, You might not consider some things a knock, but others have there own opinions, especially when it become personal.

Are you happy that your dragging my family through the dirt.
We want to thank you for that.
blud