Money matches and climbing uphill?

Snapshot9

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
Have you ever played someone for what was a sizable amount
of money to you, and lost big time...

But then, you went back and played them again, for a sizable
amount, knowing you might be climbing uphill, but won good
the 2nd or 3rd time playing them.

To what do you attribute your being able to beat them
on the rebound to?

More mental toughness
Practice
Better safeties
Having a better idea of how to play them
or did they just get lucky the first time...
 
comebacks

It's happened to me a few times. You leave loser and your in the car thinking to yourself: "How the F did I just lose to this guy. I'm stealing" Then I analyze my match find where I played weak and try to match up again. Ususally I think it's all in your head...That's usually the difference for me...
 
Scott,
This is probably not exactly what you are looking for, but here goes.

I have a nice table at home, take lessons regularly, and practice seriously most of my free time. As I only started playing seriously 3 1/2 years ago, I like to go out to the local halls 2 or 3 times a year and take on some of the good players (otherwise I almost never go to the pool hall except for straight pool league matches - no gambling then). There are 2 guys that initially were a little above my level, but I enjoyed playing with them. Playing $20 sets (at 9-ball, a game I almost never play) I lost 2/3 sets to both of these guys. I practiced hard, came back 6 months later and split with one guy, and lost 2/3 to the other. Practiced again, came back 6 months later and blew them both away (one of them for fairly high stakes).

I don't think that my knowledge of their game was instrumental - I was practicing purposefully, receiving top level instruction - and they weren't. I find it amazing how many players will spend incredible amounts of time playing without improving (considering they tend to express the desire to get better).
 
For me that loss probably came because of the nerves of having to play for so much on the line. And that always is determined by the amount of money I have on hand and how many bills are yet to be payed.

In my expirience, I may lose once for that amount, but I'll get it back on the rematch.

Sometimes for me it takes alittle adjusting to play for higher stakes. I'm not a big money player, so when I do play for more then I'm accustomed to, I tend to play nervous.., that is until the rematch.
 
Williebetmore said:
I find it amazing how many players will spend incredible amounts of time playing without improving (considering they tend to express the desire to get better).
Click to expand...

On one hand I find it amazing, but on the other it doesnt surprise me at all. You are improving because you were willing to take lessons and put hard work into what you were taught. Many players like you describe never take lessons so they are simply doing the same things over and over. While they will show a limited amount of improvement, they will hit a point in which they wont get any better until something changes. Funny thing is many of them will say "Im not paying X amount of money for a lesson" but then go blow hundreds on gambling or new equipment. Not realising that one lesson with a good instructor may help them enjoy the game more than they ever have.

I dont remember the exact quote, but it was something about doing the same thing but expecting different results being foolish.

Hope to see ya in Peoria,

Woody
 
Snapshot9 said:
Have you ever played someone for what was a sizable amount
of money to you, and lost big time...

But then, you went back and played them again, for a sizable
amount, knowing you might be climbing uphill, but won good
the 2nd or 3rd time playing them.

To what do you attribute your being able to beat them
on the rebound to?

More mental toughness
Practice
Better safeties
Having a better idea of how to play them
or did they just get lucky the first time...
Click to expand...

Not being prepared. Pracitce I suppose (I'm real bad with putting in the time for the last few years) but it prepares both mental and physical.

I put in some time, feel pretty good with my game ( it doesn't need to be great) then just play. If i wanna nit pick, sure I'd find faults but I'd rather not dwell on my short commings.

When I could play a little the object was, never let myself get in that position! LOL

Rod
 
This doesn't have much to do with the question but I just learned the saying, "gambling money has no hands". I guess it could also be said that gambling money has no home or pockets.

To answer the question; without some kind of epiphany or Bruce Lee style training in between matchups I would say that it is all nerves. I have lost to guys because I was nervous, about the amount, them, the railbirds, the barmaid, whatever. Then later I have played them and dominated feeling totally comfortable.

I have a good example. I was new in Charlotte and my boss took me out to some local poolhalls to introduce me to the owners. I was asked to play the owner of one and one of his better players. So I focused and played well enough to convince them that I can play well. Then a bit later in the same room a guy approached me who looked like a bum. We started playing for small stakes and all of the sudden I couldn't hit the end rail. All I was thinking about is that I should be running over him and "proving" to my boss what a good player I am. I lost $160. I gave the guy my number and told him to call me if he wanted to play again.

The next night he called me and I told him I would rather play for $50 a game and post $500. He agreed and we met at a different poolhall an hour later. I agreed to play for $60 a game and post $600 with his backer, 60 being easier to count out than 50.

Now, without the "pressure to perform" I settled down and focused and beat him in about an hour. Turns out he is/was one of the best players/hustlers in this town. Kinda ruined my action with most of the players who are really at my level. But I'll never lose the feeling of that night when I just played my game and was able to block out everything else.

John
 
I think that an honest and accurate analysis of the match you lost goes a LONG way towards preparing you for the next one.

One problem with today's young players, and players in general is that they don't get up and try again after losing. Joe Salazar told me that in his day you just went after a guy until you beat him. I personally believe that this is the ONLY way to get better by playing pool for money.

You have got to have the bravery to challenge "better" players and take your licks. You also have to have the brains to study them while they are beating you and learn what they are doing to you. Then you have to have the discipline to practice what you have observed and the knowledge of when to use it and the skill to execute it.

I am ambivalent about spots. I believe that two players who don't know each other should just match up even. The only exception is when someone's reputation precedes them, i.e. their skill level is well established. I find though that people tend to overrate based on very little data. In other words my "speed" is clocked as high when I beat a good player but it never goes down when I lose to a good player, a mediocre, or a bad player. Hell, I am judged to be "too good" when I get a spot against a good player and LOSE, just because I played them. Where does that come from?

I have no answer for it. I figure that I am just from a different time/place where people just matched up differently, I am just different in my view of how it should be, or players are just nittier today than in the past. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people who will step up and gamble without knowing me. I just mean I don't understand the guy who wants the six out for $5 a game because he heard I thought about playing so-and-so. Or option 4 is that I just have too much "heart" as my good friend Dave would say. Of course Dave feels that players who have a lot of "heart" have a shortage of brains when matching up so heart equals stupidity.

So, I will take 12:2 from anyone here, unless you have your own forum in the pro section in which case I want 25:1 and you play one handed, jacked-up, behind your back. If i get this I'll bet $5 a game and post $20.

:-)) John - soopanit
 
woody_968 said:
On one hand I find it amazing, but on the other it doesnt surprise me at all. You are improving because you were willing to take lessons and put hard work into what you were taught. Many players like you describe never take lessons so they are simply doing the same things over and over. While they will show a limited amount of improvement, they will hit a point in which they wont get any better until something changes. Funny thing is many of them will say "Im not paying X amount of money for a lesson" but then go blow hundreds on gambling or new equipment. Not realising that one lesson with a good instructor may help them enjoy the game more than they ever have.

I dont remember the exact quote, but it was something about doing the same thing but expecting different results being foolish.

Hope to see ya in Peoria,

Woody
Click to expand...

I believe the quote you're looking for is, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."
 
PPS: I won't even ask a top player to play because I feel like I need to ask for more weight than I want to have and it screws with my head. I would get NO satisfaction by beating Tony Watson with the six out. I don't even know WHAT to ask for. Even is out of the question so I just avoid it by leaving them alone. I would rather play a pro dead even for $10 a game than get the six out for a $100 a game - even if I had the nuts.

One of the best times in my life was losing $100 to Buddy Hall getting 10:7 (he insisted on spotting me something). I learned two or three shots that have paid me far more than the $100 it cost to learn them.

John
 
That's why ...

You don't give up too much spot for a cheap set.
Because if they do beat you, then they will come
back for more for more money. If you are going to
play them, make them pay for the opportunity of
at least a $100 set.
Lots of time, young guys will ask for the 6 and the
breaks, or some such spot, which is more than they
should have (always), and I will reply with something
like the 7 and the breaks for $300 a set, minimum
3 set put up. That usually quiets them right back
down.
It was an old rule of thumb that the more you played
for, the more the spot, to a point of course. Now,
they all expect the nuts for a $25 or $50 set.

One of the questions is: How much is your talent
worth? If you shoot for $5 all the time, you will
always be a $5 shooter, no matter how good you
play. People do learn from better players little
shots or tricks of the trade that will end up saving
them much more money in the future than what
they spent getting their 'lesson'. And players
think a lot more about the ones they lost than
the ones they won.
 
Snapshot9 said:
One of the questions is: How much is your talent
worth? If you shoot for $5 all the time, you will
always be a $5 shooter, no matter how good you
play. People do learn from better players little
shots or tricks of the trade that will end up saving
them much more money in the future than what
they spent getting their 'lesson'. And players
think a lot more about the ones they lost than
the ones they won.
Click to expand...

I don't totally agree with this. If you mean a $5 shooter to be someone who is only able to play well for low stakes then I can somewhat agree. Obviously the more barriers/hurdles we overcome the easier it is and the more comfortable we are.

If however you mean that a someone cannot develop world class talent without gambling I would have to disagree. I have seen too many players who are either top notchers or nearly there who don't gamble and never have.

Ulitmately this game comes down to making the balls in order to win. You won't find many tournaments these days where people can hustle their way through, i.e. play badly on purpose and win the tournament. Nerves are just something one has or doesn't. Proper fundamentals allow for some nervousness to be overcome by muscle memory. Anyone that knows how and is able to get out under pressure will eventually come out on top with or without money on the line.

John
 
Matching up...

onepocketchump said:
PPS: I won't even ask a top player to play because I feel like I need to ask for more weight than I want to have and it screws with my head. I would get NO satisfaction by beating Tony Watson with the six out. I don't even know WHAT to ask for. Even is out of the question so I just avoid it by leaving them alone. I would rather play a pro dead even for $10 a game than get the six out for a $100 a game - even if I had the nuts.

One of the best times in my life was losing $100 to Buddy Hall getting 10:7 (he insisted on spotting me something). I learned two or three shots that have paid me far more than the $100 it cost to learn them.

John
Click to expand...


Well, I agree and I disagree. I too would be play any world beater cheap one pocket. I too would love to be able to play all comers even, but, the reality is you just can't. When I walk go to the poolroom, I am punching in the time clock. I am there to take the cheese home. Be it a weekly tournament or regular game. Nobody likes to lose and I don't like to lose either. I can tell how I stand gambling with everyone I play, if I am even $20 stuck I want it back and some of theres too. I don't mind matching up tough, but I wont give it away. I see it as a part time job. Gambling is gambling, you wouldn't play any top golfer even, or any other pro athelete, unless, you just like to give it away. Ones ability to match up is half if not more of the game. I wont lie, I have done my share of stealing, but, I have also out ran a couple of spots I shouldn't have, and lost in games that were out of line. Looking at matching up to get a "lesson" spells give up pool from the start. If you want a lesson, then get one from someone who you are paying to teach you. Spend that $30 or $40 on accustats, you'll get way more for the money out of it. Do you really think that a world beater playing you even when they can give you 11-5 and the breaks or the 6 and out has to show any of their speed. What can you learn from that, other than how to lose.
My two cents...
 
onepocketchump said:
One of the best times in my life was losing $100 to Buddy Hall getting 10:7 (he insisted on spotting me something). I learned two or three shots that have paid me far more than the $100 it cost to learn them.

John
Click to expand...

I watched that match John, when you played Buddy for $10 a game at the Cue Club. I vividly recall some idiot railbird making mention of "who was this idiot throwing away his $$$?" I turned to him and said, "That 'idiot' is getting the opportunity to pick the brains of one of the top players in the country, for almost nothing! Now WHO'S the idiot?" He shut up after that. The coolest part was after you guys quit, you sent Buddy back to his hotel in a limo! Class act John!

Scott Lee
 
zeeder said:
I believe the quote you're looking for is, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."
Click to expand...

That sounds like the one :D
 
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