Money pit? does cuebuilding/repair pay off?

Mase, that sounds great I'd really appreciate that. A big part of why I got interested in doing this was because of talking to Don. He really had some excellent work displayed last year and he was very open about what went on to make his cues. Could you PM me with your number I'll give you a call this weekend. Are you organizing the canadians as well? we are trying to get a few teams to play in a summer league next year to get ready for them. Most people here leave the pool cues for summer in favor of golf but I think we'll have at least two maybe three teams coming down.

Thanks,

Matt LeClerc

Mase said:
It was a chap that apprenticed with me for about a year. His name is Don Broose. He does excellent work and will be doing the Ontarios again for me. With me organizing them and playing in them I don't have time to do the repairs. Either of us would be happy to talk to you and answer any questions you may have. If you want, you could come down and spend a day or two with me and I could probably help you get started.
 
Making Money, Making Cues

Hello....

I hope my experience in this realm might be of some assistance in your endeavor. Tony Sciannella, his son, Tony Jr., his brother Ray and I (my name is Vince Sangmeister) built Black Boar cues from scratch. We started with a vacant building suited for 220/3phase and nothing more. Making money in the business is so damn sketchy at best. You have to ask yourself how much machinist experience you have. Not woodworking!!! Machinist...steel, aluminum, various other alloys, plastics, phenolics, drills, end mills of every kind, HSS cutters, routers, saws, etc.

The reason I say this is several fold. First, 99.9% of the "tools" you'll need are not off the shelf items. Everything we did, every jig and fixture was made by us. We purchased metal working lathes and mills and retrofitted everything. Basically we gutted each machine and and rebuilt it from scratch. Effectively we were purchasing nothing more than a motor and good ways on the lathe or mill. Metal working requires bull force for the most part, low RPM/High Torque....wood, does not. The metal working machines were capable of holding the tolerances we were looking for + or - 1/2 of .001" on wood. To give you some idea of how tight a tolerance that is...a human hair is approximately .002" in diameter. Take that hair, split it in half down the middle for .001" and then split each of those halves down the middle. We developed machines capable of doing that repeatedly. For the most part and from my experience you can't hold tolerances like that with wood working equipment. The metal working machines were too torquey (in a word) for the high speed cutting wood demanded. You simply can't take a 30+" maple shaft and butt a HSS cutting tool up against it while it's spinning at 3000rpm. A router motor spinning at 30,000 rpm, jigged to a metal working tool holder on a lathe and spinning a razor sharp slotting cutter CAN cut that piece of maple to high tolerance.
The second reason I say you should know some things about being a machinist is that you have to learn about tolerances. Most "woodworkers" that is, those who do cabinetry or wood lathe turnings etc don't use such high tolerances as you will with building cues. For example....a 13mm shaft in inches is .5125" Most cue makers aim at .511 to .513 A better player can most definitely feel the difference of .001" as that shaft slides through his/her fingers. Not that I'm a "better" player but to give you an example of this...I once turned 7 shafts to final size using only sandpaper. I didn't put a mic to a single one of them as I sanded off the remaining .008" or so. The only "micrometer" I used was running the shaft through my closed bridge fingers. After I felt the shaft was at 12-3/4mm I stopped sanding that particular one and moved to the next. After all 7 shafts were where I thought they should be I put a mic to them. Over the 7 shafts the difference was less than 1/4 of a thousandth of an inch. And that was by touch alone. This endeavor is most definitely NOT woodworking by any stretch of the imagination.

Cue makers become "experts" in every facet of machinery, mechanical properties of wood as an engineering material, wood selection, relative humidity, moisture content, adhesives, finishes,....the list is endless depending on how indepth you wish to pursue this.

I think the greatest expenses you're going to incur are in QUALITY materials, machines, materials for retrofitting those machines to turn wood at high tolerances, and the most important expense you're going to incur is TIME!! It takes a long time to learn all those things effectively. I highly recommend you dabble at the repair aspect of cues first. The reason being is that by doing so you'll get to see every convolution of cue that's almost ever been made. The good, the bad and the really really really really bad. When that little old lady of a customer comes in with the K-Mart ramin wood shafted, brass jointed, nylon wrapped, 42 piece cue and she wants you to "make it play better because she can't draw her ball more than 2 inches" on a bar box, you'll also learn a ton about customer service. You'll also get the opportunity to tinker and experiment with woods, tips, metal, precious metals, inlay materials, wrap materials, adhesives, finishes, as well as be able to identify ALL those things in someone elses product. Personally I think if someone wants a cue restored back to it's original condition you should know how it was made and not too many cuemakers are coming off the secrets of their success. That education, knowing how it's been done in the past, will be your most valuable lesson. Rhetorically speaking here but do you really want to build the same cue that's been built for the last 30 years??? Or, would you desire to do something different and better than it's been done in the past??? Again, personal observation here but it's entirely more fun to "build a better mouse trap."

If I can be of any help whatsoever please do not hesitate to contact me at any time. My email is vncntsng@cablelynx.com

Sincerely, Vince Sangmeister
 
VinceS said:
Tony Sciannella, his son, Tony Jr., his brother Ray and I (my name is Vince Sangmeister) built Black Boar cues from scratch.
Vince, were the very first Black Boar cues made in the shop of Tim Scruggs?
I was told this one time and I would just like to verify the information.

My only other question is, when will I be able to order a Black Boar cue through your shop? I understand that you are currently under a commitment to an Asian buyer.
 
tooling

VinceS said:
Hello....

I hope my experience in this realm might be of some assistance in your endeavor. Tony Sciannella, his son, Tony Jr., his brother Ray and I (my name is Vince Sangmeister) built Black Boar cues from scratch. We started with a vacant building suited for 220/3phase and nothing more. Making money in the business is so damn sketchy at best. You have to ask yourself how much machinist experience you have. Not woodworking!!! Machinist...steel, aluminum, various other alloys, plastics, phenolics, drills, end mills of every kind, HSS cutters, routers, saws, etc.

The reason I say this is several fold. First, 99.9% of the "tools" you'll need are not off the shelf items. Everything we did, every jig and fixture was made by us. We purchased metal working lathes and mills and retrofitted everything. Basically we gutted each machine and and rebuilt it from scratch. Effectively we were purchasing nothing more than a motor and good ways on the lathe or mill. Metal working requires bull force for the most part, low RPM/High Torque....wood, does not. The metal working machines were capable of holding the tolerances we were looking for + or - 1/2 of .001" on wood. To give you some idea of how tight a tolerance that is...a human hair is approximately .002" in diameter. Take that hair, split it in half down the middle for .001" and then split each of those halves down the middle. We developed machines capable of doing that repeatedly. For the most part and from my experience you can't hold tolerances like that with wood working equipment. The metal working machines were too torquey (in a word) for the high speed cutting wood demanded. You simply can't take a 30+" maple shaft and butt a HSS cutting tool up against it while it's spinning at 3000rpm. A router motor spinning at 30,000 rpm, jigged to a metal working tool holder on a lathe and spinning a razor sharp slotting cutter CAN cut that piece of maple to high tolerance.
The second reason I say you should know some things about being a machinist is that you have to learn about tolerances. Most "woodworkers" that is, those who do cabinetry or wood lathe turnings etc don't use such high tolerances as you will with building cues. For example....a 13mm shaft in inches is .5125" Most cue makers aim at .511 to .513 A better player can most definitely feel the difference of .001" as that shaft slides through his/her fingers. Not that I'm a "better" player but to give you an example of this...I once turned 7 shafts to final size using only sandpaper. I didn't put a mic to a single one of them as I sanded off the remaining .008" or so. The only "micrometer" I used was running the shaft through my closed bridge fingers. After I felt the shaft was at 12-3/4mm I stopped sanding that particular one and moved to the next. After all 7 shafts were where I thought they should be I put a mic to them. Over the 7 shafts the difference was less than 1/4 of a thousandth of an inch. And that was by touch alone. This endeavor is most definitely NOT woodworking by any stretch of the imagination.

Cue makers become "experts" in every facet of machinery, mechanical properties of wood as an engineering material, wood selection, relative humidity, moisture content, adhesives, finishes,....the list is endless depending on how indepth you wish to pursue this.

I think the greatest expenses you're going to incur are in QUALITY materials, machines, materials for retrofitting those machines to turn wood at high tolerances, and the most important expense you're going to incur is TIME!! It takes a long time to learn all those things effectively. I highly recommend you dabble at the repair aspect of cues first. The reason being is that by doing so you'll get to see every convolution of cue that's almost ever been made. The good, the bad and the really really really really bad. When that little old lady of a customer comes in with the K-Mart ramin wood shafted, brass jointed, nylon wrapped, 42 piece cue and she wants you to "make it play better because she can't draw her ball more than 2 inches" on a bar box, you'll also learn a ton about customer service. You'll also get the opportunity to tinker and experiment with woods, tips, metal, precious metals, inlay materials, wrap materials, adhesives, finishes, as well as be able to identify ALL those things in someone elses product. Personally I think if someone wants a cue restored back to it's original condition you should know how it was made and not too many cuemakers are coming off the secrets of their success. That education, knowing how it's been done in the past, will be your most valuable lesson. Rhetorically speaking here but do you really want to build the same cue that's been built for the last 30 years??? Or, would you desire to do something different and better than it's been done in the past??? Again, personal observation here but it's entirely more fun to "build a better mouse trap."

If I can be of any help whatsoever please do not hesitate to contact me at any time. My email is vncntsng@cablelynx.com

Sincerely, Vince Sangmeister
Hello Vince,
I must disagree with most of what you have written. First off, you make out as if a guy MUST have machineing experance. This helps, but not nessesary.
When I started, I had no experance with machinery at all. NONE. Most of the guys I teach, have none either.
Tooling, wrong again, most tools now a days are OFF THE SHELF, with the exception of taper bars, saw/lathes CNC or mechanical. Boring bars, drills, and some special mills, are easily purchased OFF THE SHELF items.

Years back, I would have to agree with special tooling, such as end mills.
Jigs and fixtures, can be purchased off the shelf from me and a couple of other suppliers.
Tony builds a GREAT CUE. He has much knowledge about woods and machines.
Wood working knowlege DOES help. Understanding glues and woods is a great help.

As far as knowing how a cuemaker built his or her cue is not as important as you say. If you were "RE-SPLICING a cues nose, I would go along with what your saying, but for refinishing, building shafts, replacing ferrules, ect, no. You just need to know how to do thoses things, and it dosen't take a rocket guy to do it.

I see some guys on there web pages say, "I'M A ENGINEER", one guy is an electrical engineer, and that has nothing to do with building a cue, another guy is an electronics guy and has something to do with switches. None of this qualifies any of them to be better cuemaker, nor does it help them building a cue..
If you want to build cues, don't let any of the above scare you off. If you want to do, GO FOR IT.
blud
 
Blud....

I don't disagree with you. What I was insinuating by my rather lengthy post is that if you dont presently have a machinist background you WILL have to acquire one. Yes...parts are available off the shelf...obviously. But if you dont know a ball end-mill from a center cutting 4-fluted end-mill or a high helix drill from a center drill or carbide from HSS it's going to take much longer to acquire that knowledge. Yes...boring bars are available over the counter but if you don't know how to use it first hand depending on which material you're cutting you're going to struggle at first until you acquire that "machinst" knowledge. Those things are most assuredly NOT woodworking. When was the last time you saw a cue maker using manual the pinscer type of calipers akin to the kind a woodworker uses to turn a table leg from a template?? He doesn't...he uses machinist tools and measuring equipment. Think of how much easier it would have been on you if you had been a machinist for 10 years prior to trying to turn your first cue.

I'm not even close to attempting to scare off the gentleman from making cues. Far from it.....I wholeheartedly encourange ANYONE to seek their dreams but a healthy dose of reality is paramount whenever undertaking ANY business venture. If anyone thinks they're going to take an investment of $4000.00 and jump into cues making lock, stock and barrel...I personally believe they're wrong. Again...think back to your first shop. With an investment of $4000.00 back then could you have produced a finished cue with two shafts, ivory ferrules, inlay, exotic hardwood points etc etc etc of any quality other than a sneaky pete? If so, more power to you.

Which is why I stated I believe the gent should undertake cue repairs first. THAT knowledge will put him well on the way to understanding all the finer nuances of building a finished product as well as understanding machinst principles.

Vince.
 
Rich....

Sorry.....I just typed out a message to you and tried to PM it to you. However....it's LONGGGGGGGGG regarding the Tim Scruggs/Black Boar connection. When I tried to send it I found out the message has to be limited to 1500 characters.....well.....mine is something like 11,000 characters. It's a cool story though. Anyhow...I tried to email you but it says you dont accept emails....if you'd like to please email me with your address and I'll send along the story I wrote and tried to send. My email address is vncntsng@cablelynx.com

As far as ordering a Black Boar....sorry but I have no idea of what Tony's status is presently. He and I haven't spoken for a few years now so I'm really in the dark. I plan on contacting him in the not to distant future so I'll keep you informed of what I find out. I've heard the shop is no longer even there. Simply put....I don't know.

Vince.
p.s. Do we know each other from when I lived up there?
 
Machining skill vs woodworking skills

Here is my take.

Both Vince and Blud are correct, just coming at it from different angles. My personal opinion is that a machinist is going to go farther faster in a start up scenario due to the machines and tolerances involved with cuemaking. Somone starting cuemaking from a wood workers backround has much more ground to make up.

The Porper lathe and Chris Hightowers stuff is making entry into cue repair/ cuemaking a heck of a lot easier for the non machinist.

But no matter how a person gets entered into it, they are going to have to get some machining experience.

To me, cuemaking is more of a machining experience than wood working.

If you looking to get your machining questions answered, there are 2 or 3 bbs with some incredibly smart machinist who are very willing to help someone with the desire to learn.

They are Home Shop Machinist and Practical Machinist. Practical machinist is a bit more high end machining info. Alot of it is still beyond me and I have been reading these bbs for 3yrs now.
 
> This is precisely why I am taking a 18 month machinists course. Whether your material is plastic,metal,or anything else,consistently cutting very accurate tenons,threads on a rod,bored holes,takes a little getting used to. Sometimes you have to "sneak" up on your desired measurement,and you should be prepared to scrap the part several times in the beginning. Find different ways to size your parts perfectly. I was doing a 3/4 shank fly cutter as one of my class projects. The tolerance on the shank was plus .000,minus .001,when I turned it in it miked out at .7499 no matter how you turned it and where on the shank you measured it. The lathes I use at school are pretty worn,and I never could trust the machine to not cut too much on the last pass,so after 3 attempts I stopped cutting at .755,and polished all the scratches out with 220,and continued to lap the part until I got to 1200 grit. My instructor once again accused me of polishing a part to make it look pretty,in this case the attention to detail he found excessive resulted in what he said is the best fly cutter he has seen a student turn in in his 10 years teaching there,a perfect 100. Another thing a machinists course or background teaches is basic safety,above all else. Tommy D.
 
I purchased a Hightower lath just for repairs. The machine has paid for itself 10 times over. I have done the Planet Pool tournaments and turned a quick $800. 90% of the time I come out of a pool hall I have 3 or 4 re-tip and shaft cleaning jobs. You do the math, $35 for the tip ( cost $10 ) and $10 for the reconditioned shaft which takes about 10 minutes. Since this is just a hobby for me, I take care of a lot of friends free.
Purdman
I paid $1,875 for my machine.
 
I just finished reading this thread and I have to say that it's really got me wanting to take a machining class...lol. I just have to finish my undergrad degree, get a good job that pays really well, buy a house with plenty of space for a pool table as well as a "shop" area for lathes and machinery and whatnot, and then I'll be able to start from scratch...lol. Oh well, maybe someday the stars will align such that it will work out for me.
 
zeeder said:
I just finished reading this thread and I have to say that it's really got me wanting to take a machining class...lol. I just have to finish my undergrad degree, get a good job that pays really well, buy a house with plenty of space for a pool table as well as a "shop" area for lathes and machinery and whatnot, and then I'll be able to start from scratch...lol. Oh well, maybe someday the stars will align such that it will work out for me.


I think you forgot about the new cues too:D .
 
Machinist Class

Zeeder...

Bravo!!! You should take a machinist class. It's absolutely fascinating how things are truly made. The science, the tolerances, the materials etc. What I find MOST fascinating is that even with ALL that high tech stuff it eventually boils down to touch. A lathe, a mill, a jig-borer, manual or CNC etc...they're tools and nothing more. What's that old adage about "...give a guy a hammer and everything looks like a nail." This is true of every damn machine I've come across that I can make something on. Another quick analogy.....put a hammer and chisel in a guy's hand, give him a piece of marble and he might make little rocks from big ones....put that same hammer and chisel in a different guys hands and the same piece of stone and he'll create a sculpture not like Michelangelo's David.
 
> Chris told me about a week ago that he requires half up front on any machine,and the wait on a Deluxe is about 10 weeks. Tommy D.
 
IMO, if you're going to do repairs, I would start small.
Start with a good used lathe. Do repairs at smaller regional tournaments, solicit repairs from local bars. This will have you on the road to bigger and better things...
________
 
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