More APA Disappointment....

Nullus

Nullus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Day two of the Open Championship and Masters Championship and still no standings. Bad enough they don't have an online bracket, but they can't even update their standings after a day of play. This is all fairly easy programming and despite all the money APA makes off of it's members, they can't get with the times so those of us interested in following the progress of the Nationals from afar can do so.

On a side note....the programs list match games as costing $1 per? Seriously? Not only were the NAPA Nationals open tables for practice but the green fee translated to far less for match play.
 
Nullus said:
Day two of the Open Championship and Masters Championship and still no standings. Bad enough they don't have an online bracket, but they can't even update their standings after a day of play. This is all fairly easy programming and despite all the money APA makes off of it's members, they can't get with the times so those of us interested in following the progress of the Nationals from afar can do so.

On a side note....the programs list match games as costing $1 per? Seriously? Not only were the NAPA Nationals open tables for practice but the green fee translated to far less for match play.
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Do you win a trip to NAPA Nationals or do you just buy your way in? Just taking a quick peak, I see that the highest payout was $2300 for singles. Teams was only $2500. If you want to start pissing on what others enjoy, you'd better look it over first.
 
Actually, I enjoyed APA for nearly a dozen years. After a long break i'm back giving it a try again and it's been disappointing to say the least. I'm currently playing in both the Masters Division and a regular one. I speak out about it because I'm hoping to make a difference and that if enough people do, the APA will take a look at how they're doing things and make an attempt to better them.

As for NAPA, there are many ways to qualify, winning locally, captaining a team for a session without forfeiting, winning a qualifier, being the high point winner on your team...just to name a few. I went this past year after being a captain my first session and being the high point player on my team. You can qualify more than once as well. They have three different singles championships as well as a team championship.

The whole event coincides with a big Pro event (Southern Classic), and is very well run. The folks in charge are very approachable and available to talk to. Vegas is nice, but with the current state of the APA and the ongoing sandbagging dilemma and how hard it is to qualify, NAPA is an excellent alternative.

I'm not encouraging folks to quit APA, I still play myself. I'm encouraging APA to fix what's wrong with their league, while at the same time letting players know they can play in more than one amateur league and they may just find they like others better. Maybe this will help kick APA into action, maybe not. Right now, the only league I enjoy playing in that is run by the APA is the Masters because it's a no handicap system and I don't have to suffer a double reduction against nearly everyone I play like I do in the regular league, being a SL7.

Again, I don't want to see APA fail, I think the concept is great. I want to see APA fix itself.
 
I'm also in the camp of wanting the APA to fix itself.

The APA is still using the same venue with the same payouts as 20 years ago, and with about the same number of tables. They really need to change locations, add modern technology, and have many more pool tables.

Unfortunately, their main competitors aren't present in a significant way in many areas, so the APA is somewhat shielded from competition, which means the pressure on them to do things like this isn't all that strong. Ironically, if they APA waits for that pressure to fully arrive, they may find that it's already too late.
 
Forgot to respond to your comment about the prize money....

NAPA is considerably younger than APA albeit growing quickly. Prize payout is based on entries, which are based on qualifying locally. When they've been around as long as APA and have as many members equally, comparing the prize payouts will be silly. NAPA will be paying out much more. The numbers don't lie. You mentioned payouts of around 2500, those are based on fields less than half the size of the fields at APA, and for a fledgling league that's growing.
 
Cory in DC said:
I'm also in the camp of wanting the APA to fix itself.

The APA is still using the same venue with the same payouts as 20 years ago, and with about the same number of tables. They really need to change locations, add modern technology, and have many more pool tables.

Unfortunately, their main competitors aren't present in a significant way in many areas, so the APA is somewhat shielded from competition, which means the pressure on them to do things like this isn't all that strong. Ironically, if they APA waits for that pressure to fully arrive, they may find that it's already too late.
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Agree on counts.
 
One other thing, since you brought up payouts. NAPA pays out prize money every session, not just at the national level. This despite costing about the same to play weekly (there's a $1 difference locally). They also don't have a hefty yearly membership fee to join, it's sign up and play, $0 yearly dues.
 
I've been to Vegas now 10 times. The first two times were for APA and 7 of the remaining 8 times were for BCA. I gave the APA one last chance a couple of years ago and was sorely disappointed. Here are some issues off the top of my head but if you gave me some time, I can probably think of more.

1. The tables. They use Valley tables which isn't really bad. Unfortunately, the cloth is clearly very old. To make matters worse, the tables are not always in great condition. Dead rails and unlevel surfaces are not unusual.

2. Hotel expenses. So you've won your trip? Well, you better make sure you stay for the days they expect you to stay. I arrived the day before the event began and scheduled to leave the day of the finals. It turns out, I had to pay full price for my first night because that wasn't part of the package but I could get half off if I wanted to stay until the day after the event concluded. :|

3. Organization. I had a match scheduled for 10pm. For a New Yorker in Vegas, this feels like 1am. Not a big deal. I've played that late. But, the organizers didn't want to announce my 10pm round until all the tables were available. Yes, all 200 tables had to be completed before they would announce the next round. So, we waited. Hours. I didn't get started until after midnight and proceeded to play like crap on their crappy tables.


In contrast, the BCA plays everything on Diamonds with new cloth. The event is not just the BCA finale, it's meant to be a true showcase for the entire industry. If there's something new and better, there's a good chance you'll see it at the BCA. As well, your matches have scheduled start times with table assignments. The only thing that will hold you up is if the table is already in use and if that's the case, you can always ask to be reassigned. The APA's "trip to Vegas prize" is barely worth $600 when the trip to Vegas costs quite a bit more. If I'm going to be paying anyway, I'm going to fork over that extra $600 and get a better experience.
 
I have played multiple league formats over the years. Honestly the one I like most is the BCA/ACS. Playing for points instead of wins generally eliminates the desire of competitors to sandbag. I can play any organized tournament I want to, I simply need to pay the entry fee. Cash payouts every session. Teams do not break up just because they get better.

Now on the other hand, I do like the match up system of the APA. I like playing a match in stead of single games. I also like the way 9-ball is played. Too bad there aren't more tournaments done this way.

As far as the APA payouts, these leagues are FOR PROFIT. They are franchises that are bought and sold.
 
Nullus said:
One other thing, since you brought up payouts. NAPA pays out prize money every session, not just at the national level. This despite costing about the same to play weekly (there's a $1 difference locally). They also don't have a hefty yearly membership fee to join, it's sign up and play, $0 yearly dues.
Click to expand...

APA pays out each session here in our LO's territory. That's 15 divisions.

Assuming a 12 team division, winning team gets about $1000, second place around $500, 3rd and 4th get appropriately smaller amounts. More teams, higher payouts, less teams, smaller payouts. But the top four teams get paid, every session, every division.
 
I captain a team in APA (Tuesday nights) and NAPA (Wednesday nights) as a little background.

APA is fun for a very casual experience and hanging out with my friends. The division here is quite small with 6 teams so everybody knows everybody. Dealing with the APA and the faulty anti-sandbagging measures has become tiresome. My team won first place in 8-ball, earning $150 to split 8 ways... woo hoo (sarcastic enthusiasm)

NAPA has been around for less than a year up here in Seattle but I enjoy playing in that league very much. The operators are a pleasure to work with and their "outside the box" thinking (aka: Common sense) is evident all season long. My team won first place in 8 & 10 ball, earning over $1,000 for the session!

If NAPA offered more nights and a bigger league I would switch to it full time, but they are not giving the local APA a run for their money yet. BCA, NAPA and a new local league are all stripping players away from the APA at an alarming rate, so the problem should work itself out sooner or later.

Fair disclosure: I don't want to be a pro player and am not working at that (skill level 5 and 68, APA and NAPA, respectively). I have a very nice full time job that allows me to shoot pool two nights a week and spend the weekends at the race track burning through tires, gas and cash.
 
ElLeon said:
I captain a team in APA (Tuesday nights) and NAPA (Wednesday nights) as a little background.

APA is fun for a very casual experience and hanging out with my friends.
Click to expand...

This is precisely how I feel about the APA. I actually really enjoy it when it's local. The moment I have to get off my tuchus, I want the equipment to play right! I think it's a great format when you're playing in bars in your local hood.
 
Cory in DC said:
I'm also in the camp of wanting the APA to fix itself.

The APA is still using the same venue with the same payouts as 20 years ago, and with about the same number of tables. They really need to change locations, add modern technology, and have many more pool tables.

Unfortunately, their main competitors aren't present in a significant way in many areas, so the APA is somewhat shielded from competition, which means the pressure on them to do things like this isn't all that strong. Ironically, if they APA waits for that pressure to fully arrive, they may find that it's already too late.
Click to expand...

So much THIS. I have the same gripes with the APA as everyone, although accept it for what it is and got enjoyment out of it. But man, after playing in that league on-and-off for the past 10 years, it's obvious not much has been invested back. From the top-down, it appears they are satisfied to more-or-less coast and let the 23-rule do the work.


Some relatively simple ideas off the top of my head...

1. Online brackets with text alerts of next match at Nationals (like the system CSI has)
2. An app available in lieu of scoresheets... easier and more convenient for everyone
3. An available electronic payment system for weekly fees (goes with idea #2)
4. Clarify/improve some of the rules
5. Rules posted online in smartphone-friendly format (no PDF!!!)
6. Offer game formats other than 8ball and 9ball in the mini's
7. A website that looks like it was designed in contemporary times
8. A forum area on their website that allows league members from all over the country to interact
9. Find a way to celebrate and reward skill level improvement (and not just some crummy patch tucked into the envelope), instead of letting a milestone pass unremarked
10. LO could make an effort to visit each team once a session to chat/get to know their customers/personally observe/be seen/show they care
11. Actively solicit ideas for improvement... at least make it *look* like you're trying

Hope I don't sound too negative... I just think it could be better. If they just maintain the status quo, they'll be passed by eventually.
 
Matty_B said:
Some relatively simple ideas off the top of my head...

1. Online brackets with text alerts of next match at Nationals (like the system CSI has)
2. An app available in lieu of scoresheets... easier and more convenient for everyone
3. An available electronic payment system for weekly fees (goes with idea #2)
4. Clarify/improve some of the rules
5. Rules posted online in smartphone-friendly format (no PDF!!!)
6. Offer game formats other than 8ball and 9ball in the mini's
7. A website that looks like it was designed in contemporary times
8. A forum area on their website that allows league members from all over the country to interact
9. Find a way to celebrate and reward skill level improvement (and not just some crummy patch tucked into the envelope), instead of letting a milestone pass unremarked
10. LO could make an effort to visit each team once a session to chat/get to know their customers/personally observe/be seen/show they care
11. Actively solicit ideas for improvement... at least make it *look* like you're trying
Click to expand...

#3: APA has yet to figure out how to take online payments. Because this is difficult to do in 2013.

#4 & 5: Again, difficult to do in 2013. Maybe by 2020?

#8: You are discouraged from posting rules questions in our regions Facebook page because it may stir debate or constructive input. (based on my experience)

#10 & 11: No comment. So much room for improvement and league expansion on your two talking points. The LO's own their region, it's their franchise. Why it is left to rot on the vine is beyond my level of comprehension. It's not team captains jobs to fill other teams rosters, recruit for other teams and constantly try to fiddle with all the previously mentioned baloney regarding the rule of 23 and rank strategies.
 
ElLeon said:
#3: APA has yet to figure out how to take online payments. Because this is difficult to do in 2013.
You know that costs money, right? Not only setting it up, but the payments are subject to charges, too.

#4 & 5: Again, difficult to do in 2013. Maybe by 2020?
See above.

#8: You are discouraged from posting rules questions in our regions Facebook page because it may stir debate or constructive input. (based on my experience)
I posted a rules question. I think our LO answered it the same day.

#10 & 11: No comment. So much room for improvement and league expansion on your two talking points. The LO's own their region, it's their franchise. Why it is left to rot on the vine is beyond my level of comprehension. It's not team captains jobs to fill other teams rosters, recruit for other teams and constantly try to fiddle with all the previously mentioned baloney regarding the rule of 23 and rank strategies.Visit each team? Our LO would be doing nothing but driving around. Our LO also assists in filling rosters if they can.
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Meh. Irmv.
 
Matty_B said:
So much THIS. I have the same gripes with the APA as everyone, although accept it for what it is and got enjoyment out of it. But man, after playing in that league on-and-off for the past 10 years, it's obvious not much has been invested back. From the top-down, it appears they are satisfied to more-or-less coast and let the 23-rule do the work.


Some relatively simple ideas off the top of my head...

2. An app available in lieu of scoresheets... easier and more convenient for everyone
Click to expand...

This has always been huge to me. Most of us have a smartphone or tablet of some kind.

Only two potential road blocks that I can think of:

1. Cellular signal strength. Some areas in the country may not have readily available cellular signal. Of course these folks could still file the paperwork the old way, it's 2013 and I think we need to move forward here. With a league that is largely run out of bars, the requirement to have to go to yet another bar after playing until almost midnight is not the best idea for drinking and driving. The APA should do whatever it can to discourage this.

2. Older people. This is not to offend anyone, but our older generation simply does not adopt technology how the younger generation does. This would be the case in my area where we have a lot of VFW's that are involved in the APA. Many of these guys have flip phones and just aren't into the technology craze that the younger crowd is into. In reference to #1, many people in rural areas don't grasp technology either, however it's time to start moving in this direction.
 
Nullus said:
Day two of the Open Championship and Masters Championship and still no standings. Bad enough they don't have an online bracket, but they can't even update their standings after a day of play. This is all fairly easy programming and despite all the money APA makes off of it's members, they can't get with the times so those of us interested in following the progress of the Nationals from afar can do so.

On a side note....the programs list match games as costing $1 per? Seriously? Not only were the NAPA Nationals open tables for practice but the green fee translated to far less for match play.
Click to expand...

I played in the main tournament room. All tables were open. I will ask my friend Tommorrow if the tables are open in the other room where the masters are held. He played in masters today but is out on the town tonight.
 
Nullus said:
Actually, I enjoyed APA for nearly a dozen years. After a long break i'm back giving it a try again and it's been disappointing to say the least. I'm currently playing in both the Masters Division and a regular one. I speak out about it because I'm hoping to make a difference and that if enough people do, the APA will take a look at how they're doing things and make an attempt to better them.

As for NAPA, there are many ways to qualify, winning locally, captaining a team for a session without forfeiting, winning a qualifier, being the high point winner on your team...just to name a few. I went this past year after being a captain my first session and being the high point player on my team. You can qualify more than once as well. They have three different singles championships as well as a team championship.

The whole event coincides with a big Pro event (Southern Classic), and is very well run. The folks in charge are very approachable and available to talk to. Vegas is nice, but with the current state of the APA and the ongoing sandbagging dilemma and how hard it is to qualify, NAPA is an excellent alternative.

I'm not encouraging folks to quit APA, I still play myself. I'm encouraging APA to fix what's wrong with their league, while at the same time letting players know they can play in more than one amateur league and they may just find they like others better. Maybe this will help kick APA into action, maybe not. Right now, the only league I enjoy playing in that is run by the APA is the Masters because it's a no handicap system and I don't have to suffer a double reduction against nearly everyone I play like I do in the regular league, being a SL7.

Again, I don't want to see APA fail, I think the concept is great. I want to see APA fix itself.
Click to expand...


I am the captain of my apa team that's here in Vegas now. It's our 1st time ever in Vegas. I posted a thread about my trip but unfortunately it turned into a marathon *****ing session about apa sandbagging which was not my intention.

I also happen to be a team captain in napa league. I played in the 8 ball b division at the nationals in tunica this year. Could not make it to 9 ball due to work.

I forgot what round I was put out in but it was just outa the money. The opponents I encountered in my division ranged from just above banger status to damn near an a player.

Don't get me wrong, I ain't complaining about any opponents handicap, just stating a fact.

My matches ranged from me blowing out a couple 4-0. To a couple that were 4 hour safety battles.. Yes I had 2 matches back to back that went 4 hours a piece.

The 1 st match I won 4-2 ,the 2 nd I lost 4-3. There are some damn strong players in napa league in the middle bracket let alone the a bracket or master division.

The player that put me out of the tournament was a napa 63 and could easily be an apa 7 in my area. I am an apa 5
 
Forgot to mention I went to napa nationals for singles. Our team sucks. Lol

Fwiw my napa lo is also my co captain on my apa team here in Vegas. Sure wish he could have made the trip with us, he is an 8.

It's suicide to go to the nationals with your highest ranked player only a 5,

I am proud of the team making it to the 7 th round considering its our 1st time and no high level players were able to come. I have 2- 8 on my team that both have been here before ,with other teams and also singles but could not make it due to personal reasons .

Not only would either one of them helped with their level of play but could have given us newbies advice since they been here before
 
I'm here in Vegas now for Masters. We went 2 and out. Sucks but somebody has to do it. I was here 2 weeks ago for BCA and it was great compared to the APA.
BCA mini tournaments were ran well. Walk in, signup and then play. Here at APA you have to sign up 24hrs in advance..WTF. I barely know what I'm going to be doing an hour from now.
The $1 a game crap sucks for anyone wanting to practice. I will gladly pay the $30 green fees the BCA charged. I think I played at least 30 games the first day I was there and I was there for 9 days. I do wish the BCA would put a cap on green fees though. Playing several events and continuing ot pay green fees suck but whatever.
 
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