Mosconi vs Fats

PALMERJOHN

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can anybody tell me if these two greats ever got together and played. What
was the outcome? I know they talked back and forth, but I don't know if
there was any serious competition played.
 
PALMERJOHN said:
Can anybody tell me if these two greats ever got together and played. What
was the outcome? I know they talked back and forth, but I don't know if
there was any serious competition played.



Yeah they played some exhibitions, from what I hear Fats got his nuts kicked in. Fatty wasn’t even close to Mosconi’s speed. In point of fact he wasn’t even Minnesota Fats if you get right down to it. He was New York Fats or Double Smart Fats, he didn’t start calling him self “Minnesota” until the movie came out.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Are you including Bank and One Pocket in this statement????


Hmmmm, well no I hadn’t thought about bank or 1 hole.

I hadn’t ever heard of Mosconi playing either of those but being the GREATEST STRAIGHT POOL PLAYER IN HISTORY has to give you a leg up in just about any game.

So yes I would say in every game in the history of billiards Fats would have lost to Mosconi IMO.
 
nyjoe14.1 said:
Yeah they played some exhibitions, from what I hear Fats got his nuts kicked in. Fatty wasn’t even close to Mosconi’s speed. In point of fact he wasn’t even Minnesota Fats if you get right down to it. He was New York Fats or Double Smart Fats, he didn’t start calling him self “Minnesota” until the movie came out.

I know an old guy who knew them both and has several autographed photos of himself and Willie and himself and Fats. He said that Fats was not near the player that Willie was. He told me that Willie did not like the constant chatter from Fats and didn't even like to b around when he was shooting. Willie always conducted himeself with class and was always known as the perfect gentleman. He said that Willie felt that Fats was not a real tournament shooter, but a loud, noisy gambler always trying to shark the other guy. Willie felt that Fats did not put a good light on the world of billiards. He has said some more rather direct statements that I won't post.
 
nyjoe14.1 said:
Hmmmm, well no I hadn’t thought about bank or 1 hole.

I hadn’t ever heard of Mosconi playing either of those but being the GREATEST STRAIGHT POOL PLAYER IN HISTORY has to give you a leg up in just about any game.

So yes I would say in every game in the history of billiards Fats would have lost to Mosconi IMO.

Straight pool = Mosconi by a mile
9 ball = Mosconi
Banks = Fats
Onepocket = Fats
Gambling = Fats

Not to take anything away from Mosconi but during his heyday there was a few players who would have gambled with him and had the best of it. Some real undercover players back then. As my grandfather used to say Wimpy (Luther Lassiter) won 12k in tournaments last year, that wouldn't keep me in whisky.
 
PALMERJOHN said:
Can anybody tell me if these two greats ever got together and played. What
was the outcome? I know they talked back and forth, but I don't know if
there was any serious competition played.

I remember as a kid watching some tv special aired in the early 80s. Mosconi won the match and outclassed Fats. But Fats kept on jawing as Mosconi played. I think it was straight pool. I remember also seeing Irving Crane winning a tournament Mosconi participated in. Part of the same series. Can anybody remember this show? :confused:
 
Yes they played several TV matches in the late 60's. As noted above Fats (who did steal the name from the movie) was not on the same level as Mosconi and the tournaments were a joke. There is a book which covers this in detail "HUSTLER DAYS" by R.A. Dyer - this is a great book and I highly recommend it.

Funny thing is Fats, although not a top notch player, made a lot more money from pool than anyone then or since, all because he managed to tie his name to the movie and market it. Luther Lasiter died without a cent to his name though he was certainly one of the best. All of the talk about tournament players not being of the level of big money players is trash talk in my book - tournament players were all also big money players.
Anyone who can run over 500 balls in straight or 13 racks of 9 ball in a row can compete with anyone.

If we want pool to be respected by the masses we should at least respect our own legends. It is pretty sad that the number one name in pool in the minds of most Americans and the one who profited the most was basically a fraud.
 
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/untold_stories/fats.php

tells the whole story...

The thing you have to remember is this... Mosconi was a pool player, period. He was obsessed with being the greatest in the world. Fats was only concerned with everyone THINKING he was the best in the world. Fats wasn't a pool player, he was a hustler. Pool was only a means to an end. Fats NEVER made a bet unless he had the best of it.
 
i guy that lives around where i live they call "whitey"..played fats at 8 ball when he was 13..race to 5...he only won one game,but he has pictures of this match..anyways...IMO mosconi was the more skilled player of the two..though ive never heard of them playing.
 
$moneyshooter$ said:
IMO mosconi was the more skilled player of the two..though ive never heard of them playing.

IIRC, in Shots, Moves, and Strategies, it talks about Fats and Willie playing one pocket in Philadelphia. Something about Fats calling his backer for more money. When asked where the original stake went, Fats said he still liked the game, Willie knew nothing about moving or defense. He just kept running 8 and out.
 
I've seen a few of the Moconi vs Fat's matches on ESPN classic and Fat's was nothing but a Hustler trying to shark Mosconi.

If Fat's was to have his mouth super glue'd he wouldnt be anything but a banger. The only way he was able to win was to get the Nuts and shark people into losing the game.

Mosconi had more talent in his pinky finger than Fat's did in his fat freakin body!
 
If they were both in their prime and I was betting $100 a game on the winner, I'd bet on Willie EVERY time. Willie let his Q do the talk'n while Fats let his mouth do his work. :D Fats was a good shooter, just not in the same league as Willie.
 
Eddie4269 said:
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/untold_stories/fats.php

tells the whole story...

The thing you have to remember is this... Mosconi was a pool player, period. He was obsessed with being the greatest in the world. Fats was only concerned with everyone THINKING he was the best in the world. Fats wasn't a pool player, he was a hustler. Pool was only a means to an end. Fats NEVER made a bet unless he had the best of it.

nice link i remember those shows i watched with my parents, i wish my dad was a player so i could had proper instruction right out of the gate, he taught me how to shot guns-which i'm very good, at when your 10-12 years old its amazing how critical that time is to learn a skill.
 
Just my two cents on this. The TV matches were all played in the 70's. I think there were three total. All were big hits on network television, to this day the most watched pool shows ever. Mosconi did win. He was the better player, especially playing games like 9-Ball or Eight Ball.

Saying all that, I agree with Huckster in evaluating both players respective abilities. Fats would be the favorite playing One Pocket or Banks against Mosconi when both were in their prime. He was definitely no "banger" as someone put it. The man could play, one speed below the top players in the above games. He played a sporty game of Three Cushions as well.

As far as gambling goes, it is NO match. Fats outhustled the world for many, many years. Even after he became a legend, he still matched up occasionally with top players (getting weight) and took it off. He robbed Richie Florence in his prime playing One Pocket for 300 a game in Johnston City. Fats was getting 8-7. He beat Richie for over 20K total over a two week period. Fats was one of the greatest pool hustlers who ever lived, but a total sucker at cards.

And now to put another myth to rest. Mosconi, for all his talent, was no saint or even close. He had a bad attitude most of the time, and was quick to scold people who moved or talked while he was shooting. Even if they were almost out of earshot. He demanded complete attentiveness at his exhibitions. Light a cigarette when he was shooting and you would get reprimanded. If he was struggling on a table, he would blame the equipment. Bad lighting, bad cloth, bad balls, bad rails, etc etc. It was never him.

And he was not always so gracious with his fans either, being caustic and brusque if he didn't like a question put to him. Heaven forbid, his opponent in an exhibition would play well against him. To Mosconi, this was a sacrilege. HE was the PLAYER, not this interloper. They were supposed to just roll over and let him win. Everything revolved around him in his world. Everyone else was just a spectator.

Fats loved everyone. He loved to talk to strangers everywhere he went, and would talk all day, enjoying the reaction he got from people. He was patient with people and would answer any question. He was not too self centered to compliment a child on his intelligence or a woman on her good looks. It was almost impossible to make him mad, unless someone asked him if he could beat Mosconi. He would put on exhibitions and make two or three shots total. He just talked for an hour or two and the crowd loved it. He was that funny. Fats WAS the Pied Piper, a people magnet. He could and did draw a crowd everywhere he went.

He also took care of all the stray dogs and cats in the town where he lived (Dowell, IL). He feed them every day and provided them with a secure and comfortable shelter. He was the ASPCA in that area. And he was always a soft touch for a pool player down on his luck, handing out 100 dollar bills to guys he barely knew. Thats the Fats I knew, and I'll never forget him. Yes, he was a hustler. But the man had heart, miles of it.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, Jay. You have my take on Mosconi down pat. He could be nice if he wanted to, but didn't seem to do so very often. I never got to see Fats in person.
 
This brings back memories. The one and only time I saw Fats was when he put on an exhibition. Like you said, about 90% of the time was him just talking up a storm, and we were loving it. The shots I do remember him impressing me with were banks - he was a complete master of the two and three rail variety.

I distinctly remember that he was especially gracious to the children present.

To this day I treasure my "autograph". For those of you that never met Fats, he rarely ever actually signed an autograph. In his coat pocket he always had an inkpad and a rubber stamp of his signature.
 
nyjoe14.1 said:
huckster said:
Straight pool = Mosconi by a mile
9 ball = Mosconi
Banks = Fats
Onepocket = Fats
Gambling = Fats




umm no i don't think so


Fats in his prime (not when he was old and decrepit) played onepocket and banks very well. with weight he tortured the second best onepocket player of all time Ronnie Allen for days. he banked'em pretty sporty. Ask someone who knew him pre-Johnston city days. Mosconi was a much better player except banks and onepocket. Mosconi never had to bank balls because he rarely got out of line. A modern day example of how well Mosconi could bank balls would be comparing him to Corey Duell. Corey whom I consider a prodigy at pool could go to Louisville, Memphis, or Lexington and would lose more bank matches then he would win.
 
Back
Top