Mosconi vs Fats

jay helfert said:
Just my two cents on this. The TV matches were all played in the 70's. I think there were three total. All were big hits on network television, to this day the most watched pool shows ever. Mosconi did win. He was the better player, especially playing games like 9-Ball or Eight Ball.

Saying all that, I agree with Huckster in evaluating both players respective abilities. Fats would be the favorite playing One Pocket or Banks against Mosconi when both were in their prime. He was definitely no "banger" as someone put it. The man could play, one speed below the top players in the above games. He played a sporty game of Three Cushions as well.

As far as gambling goes, it is NO match. Fats outhustled the world for many, many years. Even after he became a legend, he still matched up occasionally with top players (getting weight) and took it off. He robbed Richie Florence in his prime playing One Pocket for 300 a game in Johnston City. Fats was getting 8-7. He beat Richie for over 20K total over a two week period. Fats was one of the greatest pool hustlers who ever lived, but a total sucker at cards.

And now to put another myth to rest. Mosconi, for all his talent, was no saint or even close. He had a bad attitude most of the time, and was quick to scold people who moved or talked while he was shooting. Even if they were almost out of earshot. He demanded complete attentiveness at his exhibitions. Light a cigarette when he was shooting and you would get reprimanded. If he was struggling on a table, he would blame the equipment. Bad lighting, bad cloth, bad balls, bad rails, etc etc. It was never him.

And he was not always so gracious with his fans either, being caustic and brusque if he didn't like a question put to him. Heaven forbid, his opponent in an exhibition would play well against him. To Mosconi, this was a sacrilege. HE was the PLAYER, not this interloper. They were supposed to just roll over and let him win. Everything revolved around him in his world. Everyone else was just a spectator.

Fats loved everyone. He loved to talk to strangers everywhere he went, and would talk all day, enjoying the reaction he got from people. He was patient with people and would answer any question. He was not too self centered to compliment a child on his intelligence or a woman on her good looks. It was almost impossible to make him mad, unless someone asked him if he could beat Mosconi. He would put on exhibitions and make two or three shots total. He just talked for an hour or two and the crowd loved it. He was that funny. Fats WAS the Pied Piper, a people magnet. He could and did draw a crowd everywhere he went.

He also took care of all the stray dogs and cats in the town where he lived (Dowell, IL). He feed them every day and provided them with a secure and comfortable shelter. He was the ASPCA in that area. And he was always a soft touch for a pool player down on his luck, handing out 100 dollar bills to guys he barely knew. Thats the Fats I knew, and I'll never forget him. Yes, he was a hustler. But the man had heart, miles of it.
From all I have heard, very well put, Jay!

It seems like I have heard (but don't know it to be true) that at one point Mosconi actually lost his Brunswick sponsorship contract -- in part because of the habit he had developed of loudly complaining about the tables if things weren't going his way, even if they were Brunswick tables!
 
Never gonna see another Fats

Ok, I was going to duck this thread but calling Fatty a fraud finally motivated me. When I was a kid and a wannabe pool player, Mosconi was my hero. Him also being Italian cinched it. (For awhile I thought Willie Hoppe was Italian too) Then I got to watch Mosconi in an exhibition at the old Bensingers on Randolph street. He was grumbling and complaining the whole time. He was playing a pretty good player, Don Tozer of Decatur IL. He either missed or got out of line, I forgot which, and hurled his Rambow cue like a spear into the wall! I couldnt believe my eyes. Still, not totally rejecting the man, after the match I approached him and asked him if he had any good advice to give to a young player ( I was 15yrs old). He snarled at me, "Don't miss!" then he turned abruptly and walked away. From then on he was a creep in my eyes. A respected creep, but a creep nonetheless.
The first time I met Fatty, a rounder introduced me to him and told Fatty I was an up and coming player, but I was broke. Fatty immediately slid me a hot 20 dollar bill (which I never repaid. It would have been a code violation).
I, and everybody else, was totally fascinated by him. In Johnston City, where ever he went, the whole joint followed him. Paulie Jansco used to beg Fatty to move his conferences near the bar so he could at least sell some product. The billionaire country music singer/promoter/mogul, Roy Acuff used to follow him around like a love-sick puppy and run errands for him. On top of all this, if you matched up with him you stood a big chance of getting broke, he was also a master hustler. I could never get enough of him. One more thing, he was irresistable to women. His second wife, Evaline was a former Miss Illinois! If you never got to see him, you missed someone special.

the Beard
 
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freddy the beard said:
Ok, I was going to duck this thread but calling Fatty a fraud finally motivated me. When I was a kid and a wannabe pool player, Mosconi was my hero. Him also being Italian cinched it. (For awhile I thought Willie Hoppe was Italian too) Then I got to watch Mosconi in an exhibition at the old Bensingers on Randolph street. He was grumbling and complaining the whole time. He was playing a pretty good player, Don Tozer of Decatur IL. He either missed or got out of line, I forgot which, and hurled his Rambow cue like a spear into the wall! I couldnt believe my eyes. Still, not totally rejecting the man, after the match I approached him and asked him if he had any good advice to give to a young player ( I was 15yrs old). He snarled at me, "Don't miss!" then he turned abruptly and walked away. From then on he was a creep in my eyes. A respected creep, but a creep nonetheless.
The first time I met Fatty, a rounder introduced me to him and told Fatty I was an up and coming player, but I was broke. Fatty immediately slid me a hot 20 dollar bill (which I never repaid. It would have been a code violation).
I, and everybody else, was totally fascinated by him. In Johnston City, where ever he went, the whole joint followed him. Paulie Jansco used to beg Fatty to move his conferences near the bar so he could at least sell some product. The billionaire country music singer/promoter/mogul, Roy Acuff used to follow him around like a love-sick puppy and run errands for him. On top of all this, if you matched up with him you stood a big chance of getting broke, he was also a master hustler. I could never get enough of him. One more thing, he was irresistable to women. His second wife, Evaline was a former Miss Illinois! If you never got to see him, you missed someone special.

the Beard

Thanks Freddie. I was one of those puppies too. I carried Fats cue (and was honored to do so) when he traveled around Southwestern Ohio in the 60's. I got to ride in his limo and walk next to him and follow him around, all the time holding onto his precious cue. I felt quite important. He knew my name (I think), but always called me "The Little Man".

When he needed his cue, he would say, "Where is the Little Man"? and I would promptly bring it to him. If he was in a restaurant and needed something, He might call for The Little Man, because he knew I was intelligent and could find it for him. I was at his beck and call, and glad to be part of his entourage. I heard some of his stories a hundred times, but still loved them. He had the perfect retorts for any quips from the crowd, always putting hecklers (and jealous poolplayers) in their place.

And the crowd was on his side, big time. They would boo anyone who was insulting to the Fat man, as he preferred to be called. When we were reunited at the Bicycle Club Casino in Los Angeles in the early 90's, he greeted me with a warm smile, calling out in his resonant voice, "HEY, it's The Little Man". The boy in me (I was no youngster anymore), loved it, and I stood before him speechless and smiling, just like years before. Anything he needed during his stay, I took care of just like I always did for him. I was his "Little Man" again, and glad to be part of his entourage once more.

And by the way, his third wife T-Bell, a Country and Western singer out of Nashville wasn't a bad looker herself. About 40 years his junior too. He could pick him.
 
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I would have loved to have carried his cue

jay helfert said:
Thanks Freddie. I was one of those puppies too. I carried Fats cue (and was honored to do so) when he traveled around Southwestern Ohio in the 60's. I got to ride in his limo and walk next to him and follow him around, all the time holding onto his precious cue. I felt quite important. He knew my name (I think), but always called me "The Little Man".

When he needed his cue, he would say, "Where is the Little Man"? and I would promptly bring it to him. If he was in a restaurant and needed something, He might call for The Little Man, because he knew I was intelligent and could find it for him. I was at his beck and call, and glad to be part of his entourage. I heard some of his stories a hundred times, but still loved them. He had the perfect retorts for any quips from the crowd, always putting hecklers (and jealous poolplayers) in their place.

And the crowd was on his side, big time. They would boo anyone who was insulting to the Fat man, as he preferred to be called. When we were reunited at the Bicycle Club Casino in Los Angeles in the early 90's, he greeted me with a warm smile, calling out in his resonant voice, "HEY, it's The Little Man". The boy in me (I was no youngster anymore), loved it, and I stood before him speechless and smiling, just like years before. Anything he needed during his stay, I took care of just like I always did for him. I was his "Little Man" again, and glad to be part of his entourage once more.

And by the way, his third wife T-Bell, a Country and Western singer out of Nashville wasn't a bad looker herself. About 40 years his junior too. He could pick him.

Beautiful, informing post, Jay. I was also proud to "second" all his lies about his exploits in Chicago (100 and out one-handed, etc.) I was his official verifier of Mid-West pool adventures. "If you dont believe me, ask the kid (me) he was there and seen it." He could have gotten me to swear under oath in court to any of his fabulous pool prowess fables. I treasure every moment I spent around him. When he was near death, addle-brained, and being pushed around in a wheel-chair in Nashville, who do you think was taking care of him and doing the pushing? Three young girls, all under 25, and all lookers.

the Beard
 
freddy the beard said:
Then I got to watch Mosconi in an exhibition at the old Bensingers on Randolph street. He was grumbling and complaining the whole time. He was playing a pretty good player, Don Tozer of Decatur IL. He either missed or got out of line, I forgot which, and hurled his Rambow cue like a spear into the wall! I couldnt believe my eyes. Still, not totally rejecting the man, after the match I approached him and asked him if he had any good advice to give to a young player ( I was 15yrs old). He snarled at me, "Don't miss!" then he turned abruptly and walked away. From then on he was a creep in my eyes. A respected creep, but a creep nonetheless.
the Beard

I was wondering when the other Mosconi was going to show up. I revere the man as a pool player, but I have heard literally dozens of stories like this one.

I met a guy once who told me that he won a local straight pool tournament when he was a teenager, the prize for which was the opportunity to play Mosconi in an exhibition match. Mosconi was his hero, and he was thrilled at the opportunity to meet him. When they met before the match Mosconi was cold as a fish, and didn't have two words to say to him.

Early in the match the guy got an opening and started to run some balls. He was feeling pretty loose and getting in stroke a bit, and he had run about 35 balls when he happened to glance over at Mosconi. He said Mosconi gave him this searing, piercing stare, as if to say, "Who the hell do you think you are punk!"

The guy got flustered and missed his very next shot! Then Mosconi got up and ran out the match, and afterward didn't say a word to the guy. He said Mosconi would do the same thing to his grandmother to keep her from making just one ball against him.
 
PALMERJOHN said:
Can anybody tell me if these two greats ever got together and played. What
was the outcome? I know they talked back and forth, but I don't know if
there was any serious competition played.


Alan Hopkins got them and a few others together in the 70's or 80's and I've seen it on ESPN. One show they did together was on ABC and Willie got so pissed off he walked out. It was national TV so someone got him to come back, Fat's got under his skin and made Willie look bad. But despite the lose Willie came out on top as a MAN with class and dignity.
 
PoolBum said:
I was wondering when the other Mosconi was going to show up. I revere the man as a pool player, but I have heard literally dozens of stories like this one.

I met a guy once who told me that he won a local straight pool tournament when he was a teenager, the prize for which was the opportunity to play Mosconi in an exhibition match. Mosconi was his hero, and he was thrilled at the opportunity to meet him. When they met before the match Mosconi was cold as a fish, and didn't have two words to say to him.

Early in the match the guy got an opening and started to run some balls. He was feeling pretty loose and getting in stroke a bit, and he had run about 35 balls when he happened to glance over at Mosconi. He said Mosconi gave him this searing, piercing stare, as if to say, "Who the hell do you think you are punk!"

The guy got flustered and missed his very next shot! Then Mosconi got up and ran out the match, and afterward didn't say a word to the guy. He said Mosconi would do the same thing to his grandmother to keep her from making just one ball against him.

Like that guy, I won a local tournament in LA back in 1969, and got to play Mosconi in an exhibition. I was SOOO nervous before the "match", and couldn't sleep the night before. I met Mosconi in the poolroom (Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood) and he looked at me and sized me up. "How good are you kid?". Not too good was my reply. "Just keep it that way". This exchange surprised me and made me even more nervous.

He made the opening break and I had a long tough cut shot. I was totally whacked out and couldn't see straight, let alone shoot. I fired at the shot anyway, and barely scraped the edge of the object ball, and it moved only a couple of inches. Everyone was stunned by my feeble attempt. After all, I was the room champion. Then Pancho yelled out "He hit it!" and everyone laughed at me.

Mosconi could see I was helpless and he gave me a few chances at the table. I actually ran a six, Before he ran 119 and out. He was in his glory, dancing and strutting around the table. He loved being the man on center stage, and demanded total attention while he was at the table. I was glad when it was over. It was torture for me to sit there in the hot seat and get slaughtered.

Afterward Willie barely noticed me amid the crowd of people asking for autographs. I wanted to at least shake his hand, but he didn't have time for that. Later someone gave me a photo they had taken of me in my chair while Willie was shooting. It was dated with the day of the match. a very nice 8x10 photo. For some reason I lost it fairly quickly. I don't think it had enough significance to me to treasure it.

Willie did mellow out with the years, and we were on friendly terms when I saw him. Near the end, we booked him into Hard Times for the Willie Mosconi Memorial tournament in 1991. We paid all his expenses plus 2.5K. He shot a little exhibition before the evening matches each day. I had to stand near him and if he started to shoot the same shot over again, let him know. He was doing his exhibition almost from rote. Like a piano player, who played the same songs every night for years.
 
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Fats

Thought I would add a little something..

I saw Fats many times, and he was always fun. Everyone watch him, even the players. Recognize some of the faces in the back..

group3strip4photo3Fats.jpg


He filled the place....

Scan4groupreversestrip2photo1.jpg



And always had time for the kids...

Scan4groupreversestrip2photo2.jpg


Quite a personality, even if he rubber stamped his autograph...
 
Deadon said:
Thought I would add a little something..

I saw Fats many times, and he was always fun. Everyone watch him, even the players. Recognize some of the faces in the back..

group3strip4photo3Fats.jpg


He filled the place....

Scan4groupreversestrip2photo1.jpg



And always had time for the kids...

Scan4groupreversestrip2photo2.jpg


Quite a personality, even if he rubber stamped his autograph...

In the first photo, that's Richie Florence immediately to the left of Fats, and Kenny Anderson leaning on the chairs behind Richie. Not sure who the guy with the cue is. Looks kind of like Steve Cook, but I'm not sure.
 
This is True

"And now to put another myth to rest. Mosconi, for all his talent, was no saint or even close. He had a bad attitude most of the time, and was quick to scold people who moved or talked while he was shooting. Even if they were almost out of earshot. He demanded complete attentiveness at his exhibitions. Light a cigarette when he was shooting and you would get reprimanded. If he was struggling on a table, he would blame the equipment. Bad lighting, bad cloth, bad balls, bad rails, etc etc. It was never him."

When I went to Rutgers University, I saw an after hours straight pool match between Mosconi and Mizerak in downtown New Brunswick. It started about 1 am and lasted about two hours. Mizerak was beating Mosconi pretty badly and all Willie did was complain about the table, the conditions (this table was underneath the main room), and the fact that there was a bunch of college kids sitting around watching him play.

Earlier that day, however, Mosconi ran 187 in an exhibition in the Student Center pool hall. He was pleasant as can be, and had the most fluid stroke I ever witnessed.
 
Quite true ...

nyjoe14.1 said:
Yeah they played some exhibitions, from what I hear Fats got his nuts kicked in. Fatty wasn’t even close to Mosconi’s speed. In point of fact he wasn’t even Minnesota Fats if you get right down to it. He was New York Fats or Double Smart Fats, he didn’t start calling him self “Minnesota” until the movie came out.
as far as Fats talk being worse than his bite !
 
jay helfert said:
In the first photo, that's Richie Florence immediately to the left of Fats, and Kenny Anderson leaning on the chairs behind Richie. Not sure who the guy with the cue is. Looks kind of like Steve Cook, but I'm not sure.

Harold Lyons. Roy Futternick also.
 
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