Muscle Memory is a poor title...

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
There's no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles don't have memories. It's all done in the brain.

So what is an accurately descriptive term for what happens in the brain when an activity is repeated over and over and over and ..... so on adinfinitum?

What actually happens to the brain cells? Why does practice work? What changes take place?
 
JimS said:
There's no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles don't have memories. It's all done in the brain.

So what is an accurately descriptive term for what happens in the brain when an activity is repeated over and over and over and ..... so on adinfinitum?

What actually happens to the brain cells? Why does practice work? What changes take place?

It actually is a conditioning of the specific muscle fibers. It's much the same as when you have a muscle atrophy from lack of use because it's been in a cast, it takes no time at all to get it back to normal size. This is specific to the muscle fibers and not so much the brain. This is not to say that the brain has nothing to do with what most people call "muscle memory", but there is a "memory" (specific conditioning) related to the muscle fibers themselves.
 
JimS said:
There's no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles don't have memories. It's all done in the brain.


I would have thought the brain would rebel against a "triple lutz" or a "quadruple salchow" and told the muscles, "hey...you ain't doin' that crap under my reign". There might also be some difficulty with a 20' pole vault.
YIKES!!!!!
 
JimS said:
There's no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles don't have memories. It's all done in the brain.

So what is an accurately descriptive term for what happens in the brain when an activity is repeated over and over and over and ..... so on adinfinitum?

Use of the term "muscle memory" is a pet peeve of mine. There is a proper term for it, but it was 30 years ago that I was a pysiological psychology major and I'll be damned if I can remember it after all these years of programming computers and not even thinking about psychology.
There is activity that goes on in the muscles when an activity is repeated over and over again, but it is merely the strengthening of certain muscle fibers that are used to perform the activity. The nerve fibers extending into the muscles do not change, the muscles do, therefore no "muscle memory". Memory is a term refering to changes in the state of nerve cells not muscle fibers.
If people want to continue using the term "muscle memory" I won't argue with them. I guess if you definded "memory" as a change in state of something that increase the probability of repeating a behaviour accurately, then I guess that could be stretched to include the change in state (strength) of the muscle fibers. I confine the use of the term "memory" to a change in state of a nerve fiber.

What actually happens to the brain cells? Why does practice work? What changes take place?

If I could answer those questions, I wouldn't be programming computers. I'd be doing what I really wanted to do, scientific research. ;)
 
catscradle said:
...The nerve fibers extending into the muscles do not change, the muscles do, therefore no "muscle memory"...

There aren't any physiological changes to the neurons but there is a learning curve for efficient firing and motor unit recruitment. It's just like in weight lifting, your nervous system will hinder you in the beginning until it begins to work more efficiently with more extensive fiber recruitment and efficient firing of neurons.
 
Muscle Memory - one industrial definition

What does it mean to learn a new skill and go from "novice" to "expert"?
In the world of heavy equipment, part of that learning means memorizing how to use levers, joysticks, and even pedals in a coordinated way to control the attachment at the end of the boom.

But how does this memorizing take place?
At first, you need to concentrate in order to make your fingers, hands, arms (and feet) move in just the right way, based on what you see. What you're learning is precision, i.e. how to make the boom attachment perform the task (move a load, grapple a tree, drill a hole, etc.) carefully.

Scientists have discovered that there are a large number of internal brain structures which work together with the input and output brain structures to form fleeting images in the mind. Using these images, we learn to interpret input signals, process them, and formulate output responses in a deliberate, conscious, way.

But after a while, the "seeing-thinking-doing" gradually becomes "seeing-doing" because your muscles seem to "know" and "remember" just what to do. What you're learning now is speed, i.e. how to perform the task carefully and quickly. That's muscle memory.

Scientists call this "kinesthetic memory" or "neuro-muscular facilitation" and they speak of "sensory-motor" learning, since you are combining sensing input, i.e. what you see with your eyes, with motor output, i.e. what you do with your body.

Of course, during the "drill-and-practice", your muscles aren't really memorizing anything (since all memories are stored in your brain). Instead, what you see with your eyes is interpreted by your brain in the form of nerve signals to your muscles to make your body move.

Now by making the same movements in response to the same visual cues over and over again, the associated nerve-muscle connections gradually become more effective, i.e. the transmission of the signals becomes more effective, and this is how the "thinking" in the "seeing-thinking-doing" is gradually replaced by "seeing-doing", i.e. by muscle memory.

And this is exactly what we observe when people spend time at the controls of our Personal Simulators. At first, their body language tells you at a glance that they are concentrating carefully, working hard to watch and learn. But come back sometime later and the same people are now relaxed, sitting back, and making the same precise gestures but now much faster!

In the world of heavy equipment, muscle memory is especially important because it's the combination of care and speed that make operators truly competent. And muscle memory also let's you turn your attention to the "big picture" e.g. to plan the next step in the work to be done, by taking over a large part of your "mental load".

But there's a "catch": to learn the new skills and acquire muscle memory, you must be practicing properly. This means lots of feedback, right from the start, since novices don't know enough yet about doing things right to be able notice, and correct, their own mistakes! (If they could, they'd be experts instead of novices.) Worse, if you don't practice properly, you'll learn to do things "wrong" and down the load, you'll need to "un-memorize" those bad habits.

That's why we say perfect practice makes perfect. And here's where simulators really shine because they evaluate your (simulated) performance in ways that are much more objective and much more comprehensive than a human trainer can. And that's why the instructional design of simulators incorporate key "performance indicators" associated with both job quality and productivity.

But remember: acquiring skills is variable. Some people learn faster than others and go on to achieve higher levels of performance just because they were born with more pre-requisite abilities.
 
JimS said:
There's no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles don't have memories. It's all done in the brain.

So what is an accurately descriptive term for what happens in the brain when an activity is repeated over and over and over and ..... so on adinfinitum?

What actually happens to the brain cells? Why does practice work? What changes take place?


On the flip side, what actually happens and what is it called when a person practices and it doesn't work or an activity is repeated over and over and....so on adinfinitum and they just don't ever get it at all? Muscle amnesia? Unfortunately, I've seen my share of golfers and pool players who fall into that category and we just call them spastic numbnuts. Kinda sad...but true.
 
drivermaker said:
On the flip side, what actually happens and what is it called when a person practices and it doesn't work or an activity is repeated over and over and....so on adinfinitum and they just don't ever get it at all? Muscle amnesia? Unfortunately, I've seen my share of golfers and pool players who fall into that category and we just call them spastic numbnuts. Kinda sad...but true.

That scenario may be caused by a "lack of talent or skill" or a combination of poor fundamentals.

Incorrect "muscle memory" can be programmed just like correct "muscle memory" is done.

Unlearning poor fundamentals is actually more difficult than learning correct fundamentals. Rewriting "muscle memory" takes disciplined practice & lots of time.
 
drivermaker said:
It won't matter...didn't I hear that you were one of the guys with "muscle amnesia" anyway? :p :D

I'm sorry :confused: ...................What were we talking about?
 
Muscle Memory - Call it whatever you want - it works!

Muscle Memory - I have become a fan of this topic just lately. I have found a very simple routine that I start with either beginning a practice session OR beginning a match when I have had no time to warm up.
I WON'T PLAY ANYMORE WITHOUT DOING IT.
Playing top-notch consistent pool is done when you have very little to concentrate on except making the shot and getting position.
A good player (in stroke) simply has less to think about than a player who is trying to figure out things as they go.
By doing this simple exercise before playing, I find that I have already re-confirmed my stroke and have the confidence to concentrate better on the individual shot.
I HOPE THIS MAKES SENCE - AS IT SURE HAS HELPED MY GAME!

TY & GL
 
drivermaker said:
. . . . . Unfortunately, I've seen my share of golfers and pool players who fall into that category and we just call them spastic numbnuts. Kinda sad...but true.
Ouch! I resemble that remark. :(
 
JimS said:
There's no such thing as muscle memory. Muscles don't have memories. It's all done in the brain.

I don't think the term "muscle memory" is supposed to convey the idea that muscles have memories (obviously they don't). It's meant to convey a special kind of memory that has to do with knowing how to do something, versus knowing what you are doing (i.e., being able to describe or explain what you are doing).

This reminds me of a story I've heard told about Luther Lassiter. Lassiter was giving an exhibition, and a man came up to him afterwards to ask if he could take lessons from Lassiter.

"I don't give lessons," Lassiter said, "because I don't know what I'm doing."
 
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