My Big Problem With Leagues.

[jjinfla]

I just checked the 9 ball stats of the local APA division here and after 11 weeks one person has 4 break and runs (he is a 9) and another has 5 BR. A few people have 2 and several have 1. So that shows that BNR in 9 ball is not really that common in the APA. At least in this area. That 3 that supposedly had 3 BNR in one match should have raised his SL quite a bit. He surely is not a 3.

Most of the people who play APA here have played forever and never practice or read about how to improve or take any lessons. They play once or twice a week in the APA and they reach a level and stay there. I would say that over 95% are at the SL that they deserve to be. And depending on how many pitchers of beer they have on a particular night determines how they play that night.

For most of them it is just a fun night out.

Most of them all think they can go to Vegas so they just keep signing up.

Most of them do not know how to keep score but they see someone miss and first thing out of their mouth is "sandbagger". Yet they fail to mark defensive shots.

By the time a person finds out how to sandbag it is too late, his SL is too high. Now he has to play badly in 10 games before his SL is even affected. And that is the funny part. People will go out and play very badly (either intentionally or just because they are bad) and don't understand why their SL does not go down next week.

There is an overlooked strategy. You can have one of your players play badly and even though his SL does not go down there is a good chance that his opponent's SL will go up which would hurt that team in the playoffs. The bad game by your player might not count in his stats but the good game by the opponent will stay with him for a long time.

And you don't have to lose to hold your SL. Just barely win. Win 12-8 or 13-7. Never win with 17 or more.

I had a lot of fun with APA 9-ball but it got to be too much work running the team. And unfortunately as each player gets better and moves up in SL it gets harder to win matches. Then they have to play better and of course their SL has to go up. Then you have to split the team and find some more 1's. So I gave it up and now just play in small tournaments.

Jake

 

[catscradle]

...

Now as far as my background - I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. To date, no one has ever paid any of my bills and I owe no one. I am in no way ashamed of my past and if anything, I am proud that a common Pool Hustler could raise two great kids that are getting a top college degree and becoming medical & legal professionals. I own and operate a direct mail advertising company doing business in 24 states, but I still love to play pool.

TY & GL

I maintain nobody should ever be ashamed of their past, only ashamed of their present sometimes. You, like all of us, did what you had to do to meet your obligations and raise your kids. However, that has little bearing on the question as to whether or not hustling is a good thing or a bad thing. I guess the answer depends on the nature of the hustle. A couple of guys who like to gamble and are trying to out hustle each other is fair game, the hustle is part of the game. However, when the guy getting hustled isn't aware of the game, well, I just don't think that's right.
..., but what do I know, I didn't have the oppourtunity to get serious about pool 'til I was about 54 so I certainly can't speak from your level of experience, only from my gut feeling.

 

[Andrew Manning]

It's all about outlook...

I play in an APA 8-ball league, and there's a lot of sandbagging going on around me, and it's never bothered me a bit (although it does lower my opinion of those that are doing the sand bagging).

I'm a 5, probably on my way up to 6 shortly (have won 15 or 16 of my last 20 matches, I think), and I'm doing everything I can to get to a 7 (although that one's off in the future a ways, I'm sure). I take pride in playing good pool from time to time. I look forward to one day being one of the highest-rated players at the hall where I play. If I play a better player than me with a lower handicap, I consider that an extra challenge and extra incentive to play my best game. The only time it bothers me is when they wipe me out quickly because of their handicap, and the match ends before I get a chance to play my best game.

Screw Vegas, everyone knows you can't win there unless you take measures to cheat the handicap system. Shoot your best and enjoy playing, and leagues are great, win or lose.

-Andrew

 

[DoomCue]

Screw Vegas, everyone knows you can't win there unless you take measures to cheat the handicap system.
-Andrew

Do you KNOW this or are you making an ASSumption? If you know this, please provide an example. If not, perhaps you shouldn't make blanket statements on behalf of "everyone."

-djb

 

[Andrew Manning]

Do you KNOW this or are you making an ASSumption? If you know this, please provide an example. If not, perhaps you shouldn't make blanket statements on behalf of "everyone."

-djb

Not an ASSumption, more of an overstatement. What I should have said is "in my estimation, it is the consensus among those, on this forum and elsewhere, who are familiar with the workings of APA nationals" and not "everyone knows". I just thought "everyone knows" was a lot more concise.

I do apologize for pretending to speak for everyone, though. My mistake.

-Andrew

 

[DoomCue]

Not an ASSumption, more of an overstatement. What I should have said is "in my estimation, it is the consensus among those, on this forum and elsewhere, who are familiar with the workings of APA nationals" and not "everyone knows". I just thought "everyone knows" was a lot more concise.

I do apologize for pretending to speak for everyone, though. My mistake.

-Andrew

I'm familiar with the workings of the Nationals (whatever that means), and I've played in them. Have you been to Nationals? Do you really think a majority of the 10,000 or so players who make it to Nationals are cheaters? IMHO, you don't have to cheat in order to get to or win Nationals, and I believe the vast majority of players at Nationals aren't cheaters. I guess I'm not a part of your "consensus." Considering you've been a member for all of two days and have 6 posts to your credit, how did you reach this "consensus?"

I know I sound harsh and you should be welcomed as a new member at AZBilliards (so welcome, Andrew), but I'm a player representative for APA-Raleigh, and I take great exception to the statement that if you want to win in Vegas, you have to cheat. That's simply not true. If you believe it to be true, present proof or retract the statement. It is baseless statements like these that propagate the myth that cheating is part and parcel to playing and succeeding in leagues.

-djb

 

[Andrew Manning]

I'm familiar with the workings of the Nationals (whatever that means), and I've played in them. Have you been to Nationals? Do you really think a majority of the 10,000 or so players who make it to Nationals are cheaters? IMHO, you don't have to cheat in order to get to or win Nationals, and I believe the vast majority of players at Nationals aren't cheaters. I guess I'm not a part of your "consensus." Considering you've been a member for all of two days and have 6 posts to your credit, how did you reach this "consensus?"

I know I sound harsh and you should be welcomed as a new member at AZBilliards (so welcome, Andrew), but I'm a player representative for APA-Raleigh, and I take great exception to the statement that if you want to win in Vegas, you have to cheat. That's simply not true. If you believe it to be true, present proof or retract the statement. It is baseless statements like these that propagate the myth that cheating is part and parcel to playing and succeeding in leagues.

-djb

Well, it's true, you're clearly not a part of my perceived "consensus", and admittedly you know way more about the APA than I do.

HOWEVER, a few points in my defense: Although I've only been a member of AZB for a few days and never posted until yesterday, I've been reading this forum on a daily basis for over a year, so I'm not quite as new as I seem.

Also I never said anything about a majority of APA players cheating, the only people I meant to say were "cheaters" (and by this I only mean sandbaggers) are the teams that win on the big stage. Perhaps I'm putting too much stock in what nationals-losers say about nationals both on this forum and in person, perhaps I'm not adjusting what they say for "sour-grapes factor", and I know I'm over-generalizing based on what I've heard a few people say. But what I've heard is that if your team has accurate handicaps, you will encounter teams whose skill level seems to greatly exceed their handicaps at nationals (note I'm not saying this is a majority of teams), and you will find it next to impossible to win, and you will in many cases become frustrated and disillusioned with league play in general.

Now I'm not saying this happens to everyone, and you're saying it hasn't happened to you, it would seem. I can see that you're a person trying to make the APA a better place, and trying to stamp out any misguided impressions of it. Furthermore, I play in the APA and have a great time. But I've heard more people who have been to nationals tell it this way than not.

And the way I see it, getting immediately drawn into a genial debate with a forum veteran is a perfectly good welcome to the forum.

-Andrew

 

[FastMikie]

The first time I quit playing league
was because of being asked to sandbag.
That just ain't my style.

But I went back for the next session
when I was assured that I would be allowed to play to win.
That's when I discovered all the OTHER reasons
why league play is not for me:

Driving through rush hour traffic,
to be on time for the start of team play at 7pm.
And my match starts at midnight!

Including travel,
I invest 7 hours of my life
to play pool for one hour.
And I spend those 7 hours
in a VERY sub-optimal environment.
A smoky, over/under-airconditioned,
dirty, LOUD bar without food.

More reasons? the tables are
undersized, poorly maintained,
and the balls are a joke!

I can get my pool groove on elsewhere,
at far less cost in time,
in MY CHOICE of location
at MY CHOICE of time
with MY CHOICE of opponents.

Leagues offer a social environment
"where everyone can play, and anyone can win"
as they say in their ads.
Well, I don't need no stinkin' social experience, man.

I shoot pool to learn the art of pool.
To learn the secrets of life through pool.
To create a thing of beauty through pool.
To be the best pool shooter possible.
And I want to do it on MY terms.

I am a soloist.
Leagues are all about teams.

Team members count on you to win,
to show up according to schedule, (a commitment!)
at the start of every match,
whether they actually play you or not,
to be available to play at a moment's notice,
to keep score for other players' matches,
to stay interested and focused on the
play in progress,
and to coach when/if needed.
That's a lot of baggage I prefer to do without.

I just want to shoot pool.
​

 

[DaveK]

I'm familiar with the workings of the Nationals (whatever that means), and I've played in them. Have you been to Nationals? Do you really think a majority of the 10,000 or so players who make it to Nationals are cheaters? IMHO, you don't have to cheat in order to get to or win Nationals, and I believe the vast majority of players at Nationals aren't cheaters. I guess I'm not a part of your "consensus." Considering you've been a member for all of two days and have 6 posts to your credit, how did you reach this "consensus?"

I know I sound harsh and you should be welcomed as a new member at AZBilliards (so welcome, Andrew), but I'm a player representative for APA-Raleigh, and I take great exception to the statement that if you want to win in Vegas, you have to cheat. That's simply not true. If you believe it to be true, present proof or retract the statement. It is baseless statements like these that propagate the myth that cheating is part and parcel to playing and succeeding in leagues.

-djb

I got the impression the fellow was speaking of perceptions. If you want some proof or disproof of the perceptions then start a poll, if you want the answer. That will answer the perception question, but not the question "does it take sandbagging to win the APA Nationals ?". There is a big difference. If you really don't want the answer then simply carry on and defend as you see fit.

I agree with OHB, the only way to eliminate sandbagging in handicapped leagues is to eliminate the motivation to sandbag. The motivation is valuable prizes for the winners.

BTW, I tend to think that AZ membership date and post count are not good indicators of the members knowledge nor of their understanding of the pool scene. To suggest that it is somehow relevant is plain silly imo. Of course someone who is not a member of AZ can develop an opinion as to the consensus of player opinion regarding sandbagging in the APA.

Dave

 

[Icon of Sin]

The first time I quit playing league
was because of being asked to sandbag.
That just ain't my style.

But I went back for the next session
when I was assured that I would be allowed to play to win.
That's when I discovered all the OTHER reasons
why league play is not for me:

Driving through rush hour traffic,
to be on time for the start of team play at 7pm.
And my match starts at midnight!

Including travel,
I invest 7 hours of my life
to play pool for one hour.
And I spend those 7 hours
in a VERY sub-optimal environment.
A smoky, over/under-airconditioned,
dirty, LOUD bar without food.

More reasons? the tables are
undersized, poorly maintained,
and the balls are a joke!

I can get my pool groove on elsewhere,
at far less cost in time,
in MY CHOICE of location
at MY CHOICE of time
with MY CHOICE of opponents.

Leagues offer a social environment
"where everyone can play, and anyone can win"
as they say in their ads.
Well, I don't need no stinkin' social experience, man.

I shoot pool to learn the art of pool.
To learn the secrets of life through pool.
To create a thing of beauty through pool.
To be the best pool shooter possible.
And I want to do it on MY terms.

I am a soloist.
Leagues are all about teams.

Team members count on you to win,
to show up according to schedule, (a commitment!)
at the start of every match,
whether they actually play you or not,
to be available to play at a moment's notice,
to keep score for other players' matches,
to stay interested and focused on the
play in progress,
and to coach when/if needed.
That's a lot of baggage I prefer to do without.

I just want to shoot pool.
​

For some reason I kept expecting this to rhyme

 

[DoomCue]

I got the impression the fellow was speaking of perceptions. If you want some proof or disproof of the perceptions then start a poll, if you want the answer. That will answer the perception question, but not the question "does it take sandbagging to win the APA Nationals ?". There is a big difference. If you really don't want the answer then simply carry on and defend as you see fit.

I agree with OHB, the only way to eliminate sandbagging in handicapped leagues is to eliminate the motivation to sandbag. The motivation is valuable prizes for the winners.

BTW, I tend to think that AZ membership date and post count are not good indicators of the members knowledge nor of their understanding of the pool scene. To suggest that it is somehow relevant is plain silly imo. Of course someone who is not a member of AZ can develop an opinion as to the consensus of player opinion regarding sandbagging in the APA.

Dave

Andrew wrote, "it is the consensus among those, on this forum and elsewhere." From this, I gathered he feels that most of the people on this forum feel that it is necessary to cheat to win in Vegas. It's valid to ask how this "consensus" was reached. Andrew said in his reply to my post that he based his opinion on what he's "heard a few people say" and that perhaps he was "over-generalizing." To me, that's not a consensus, and shouldn't have been presented as such. I think his response made that clear (which is why I didn't reply), and I have no problem with that. I'm not going to argue over somebody's opinion (well, at least not this time ). I will, however, point out when somebody touts opinion as fact. He's entitled to his opinion, and I think he clarified that it is simply an opinion. It was not based on a "consensus" but rather on nothing more than what he's heard from a few people who LOST in Vegas. I tend to discount the ramblings of people who lost and are quick to blame their loss on supposed cheaters rather than on their own failings. If a majority (or even a big number) of the people who lost in Vegas said they were cheated, then there's cause for alarm and reaction. Otherwise, they're just losers looking for an excuse, IMHO. It's so funny to me that nobody ever got beat in Vegas - they always ran up against someone "who was a 4 only if I'm a 1." It's like bad beat stories in poker, who cares, stop whining.... Don't get me wrong, I don't deny sandbagging exists. I just don't think it's anywhere near as rampant as a few of the people in this thread have made it seem to be.

As far as eliminating sandbagging, it isn't going to happen. Even if you take away prizes, people will still sandbag. I've seen people cheat at church league softball (but that doesn't mean the team that won the church league cheated ). As long as there's a competition and someone can be declared a winner, there will be sandbagging in a handicapped format. Some people can't help themselves and have no honor, dignity, or self-integrity. Those kinds of people not only need to stay away from competition of any kind, they need to get out of the gene pool.

Personally, I don't think a new member of anything can speak for the entire membership (which is what announcing a "consensus of those on this forum, and elswhere" is) two days after becoming a member. I guess that's just me being silly. Do you think you could join your local gym and then say two days later, "the consensus of the members of this gym is that all of the biggest men and women are on steroids?" Wouldn't there have to be some proof to make such a preposterous statement? Or is it ok to make such a statement if it's simply someone's "perception?" Should such a statement just be allowed to slide?

When somebody makes a general statement that says winning APA Nationals requires cheating, damn right I'm going to step up and say, "Bullsh!t, prove it." As I've posted before, it's statements like Andrew's that perpetuate the myth that the APA is nothing but a bunch of sandbaggers. Just as the biggest men and women in a gym don't have to be on steroids, the winners of the APA Nationals don't have to be sandbaggers. If someone is going to make a statement to the contrary, then that statement needs to be backed up with proof.

BTW, I don't think I need to start a poll to prove or disprove whether or not sandbagging is required to win APA Nationals. An opinion based on opinion is ignorance. Until someone can prove otherwise, it should be understood that Nationals winners are not cheaters. To think otherwise is merely conjecture.

-djb

 

[stolz2]

losing

I had to do this in APA, but i guess sometimes you have to lose to win....Does that make sense? Kinda like dumping a few sets or games to up the bet. Bigger picture is more money, in league its vegas and money.

Mack

 

[Matt_24]

I play pool because I don't like participating in team sports. I could never play on a league.

Now, all you league players don't take this personally...I'm just relaying what I see where I play pool, ok? So this doesn't apply to you.

In my pool room the league players are almost like their own "cult". They play nothing but 8 ball all of the time. You can easily tell the ones that think they are top dogs and the newbies. Of course, if I ask one of these "top dogs" to gamble (at any pool game) they look at me like I'm crazy.

They get comfortable in their "league world" and don't want to involve themselves with any other players ( a lot of which are better and could teach them something ). They also don't want to leave the comfort of 8 ball which I think is the worst game in pool, again..just my personal opinion.

I could go on and on about my annoyances with league play...but I will say something. The guys who created were very smart and are probably rolling in dough. They capitolized on an apparent "need" in the pool world, and it has turned out to be a profitable venture. A place for all of the lower level players who don't really care about getting much better to mingle, and almost co-exist in the pool room. They have their own little dramas and soap operas...and seem to enjoy themselves, so in the long run more power to them. As you can tell though, it is not for me.

Some of the league players got mad at me because one league person asked me to gamble. We started out even and I beat him quite easily. I ended up giving him every imaginable spot in 8 ball and he continued to lose. I eventually told the gentleman that he needed to quit because if he couldn't win with what I was giving him, it just wasn't going to happen that night. The league people took it that I was hustling him, but I was giving him every chance in the world to win. On the last few games he was getting the break, ball and hand after the break, also after the break he could select his object balls (no matter what he made) and take any four of them OFF the table (so if he made something that made it much easier for him) before positioning the cue ball and beginning his run. The thing was he was a decent player...but because I beat him so bad even,...and then working our way up to me giving him that monster spot he was just beating himself due to nerves, anger, whatever.

Anyhow, that is just my little ramble on leagues. I don't like em'...but I have heard that there is a straight pool league somewhere around here and that actually sounds like a lot of fun. So.....let me clarify..."8 ball leagues" suck. There, that isn't so bad, is it? I've gotten way off point in this post (my wife keeps asking me questions)...but hopefully it makes some kind of sense as I'm not going to re-read it and will just hit the submit button..right..about...now.

 

[Str8PoolMan]

The first time I quit playing league
was because of being asked to sandbag.
That just ain't my style.

But I went back for the next session
when I was assured that I would be allowed to play to win.
That's when I discovered all the OTHER reasons
why league play is not for me:

Driving through rush hour traffic,
to be on time for the start of team play at 7pm.
And my match starts at midnight!

Including travel,
I invest 7 hours of my life
to play pool for one hour.
And I spend those 7 hours
in a VERY sub-optimal environment.
A smoky, over/under-airconditioned,
dirty, LOUD bar without food.

More reasons? the tables are
undersized, poorly maintained,
and the balls are a joke!

I can get my pool groove on elsewhere,
at far less cost in time,
in MY CHOICE of location
at MY CHOICE of time
with MY CHOICE of opponents.

Leagues offer a social environment
"where everyone can play, and anyone can win"
as they say in their ads.
Well, I don't need no stinkin' social experience, man.

I shoot pool to learn the art of pool.
To learn the secrets of life through pool.
To create a thing of beauty through pool.
To be the best pool shooter possible.
And I want to do it on MY terms.

I am a soloist.
Leagues are all about teams.

Team members count on you to win,
to show up according to schedule, (a commitment!)
at the start of every match,
whether they actually play you or not,
to be available to play at a moment's notice,
to keep score for other players' matches,
to stay interested and focused on the
play in progress,
and to coach when/if needed.
That's a lot of baggage I prefer to do without.

I just want to shoot pool.
​

For some reason I kept expecting this to rhyme

I could find no rhyme or reason in it.