My Big Problem With Leagues.

[Icon of Sin]

I've got to agree with that, I'm probably a 'C' player yet I'm a 6 in APA 8-ball. I don't mind so much because there are plenty of other 5's and 6's at my skill level, but to be rated a 6 out of 7 really should demand a higher skill level.

Yeah thats another wierd thing with the APA. 8 ball ranking goes to 7 when 9 ball ranking goes to 9. I think it is like this because they dont want to cram more matches into a night.

I only played APA 8 ball for 2 sessions because I didnt really care for 8 ball but when I did I was ranked a 5 in both 8 ball and 9 ball. I find it weird that I am only 2 skill levels away from the top in 8 ball and yet 4 away from the top in 9 ball. Doesnt seem to consistant to me. You would think that a 4 in apa 8 ball should be a 5 or 6 in apa 9 ball but it doesnt appear that way.

Well I quit 8 ball and I shoot 9 ball now on 2 nights a week and am a solid 6 slowly improving now.

 

[catscradle]

Being just a little sef-righteuos aren't you? What is the difference? They aren't sanbagging because they are competitive, they are doing it for the money and are out to steal something from somebody else.
Just one other note.
OHB is a grown man and doesn't need my defense, but it really is hard to hustle an honest person.

It isn't hard to hustle an honest, stupid person and I think they are generally the marks where significant money is made.

This comment is not directed at OHB because I know nothing about his past or hustling history ... I think hustling is just plain wrong. A lot of people talk about it as if it's the coolest thing ever, but what is the difference between taking somebody's rent money because your stronger or because your smarter; both are robbery no matter how you slice it. Lying about the value of stock certificates, or lying about your skill in pool; both are fraud. I don't like to gamble, but I don't object to people engaging in a fair game of chance. If somebody knows they'll get their clock cleaned and chooses to play anyway for the experience of playing somebody much better that's cool too. A hustle is something different from that. The Eddie Felson who was playing Fats straight up was magnificent, the Eddie Felson who was take advantage of some dopes in a bar on the waterfront maybe deserved to have his thumbs busted.
JMHO.

 

[Zims Rack]

Nit- What is your way of eliminating sandbagging?

Room Owners- What about the question DAN D asked, Why don't the pool rooms have in house leagues anymore, but will have multiple APA teams play there 2-4 nights per week?

Check out our league, Zim's Rack 8-Ball League, www.zimsrack.com and see what you think!

Thanks,
Zim

 

[ironman]

How can I be self-righteous if I have nothing to do with the subject matter? I already made a point that most people in the APA sandbag to level the playing field, since sandbagging is so popular. Trying to level the playing field is being competitive still. And are you saying that all of the people that get hustled are dishonest and deserve to get robbed and conned? Come on man, you know that's not how it really is.

Sandbagging to level the playing field? That's a good Hustle! But, how in the hell, is that being competitive?

 

[DoomCue]

You can't really blame the team captain for that. The APA is a nothing but a sandbagging freeforall. I am not exaggerating, there are many, many players that shoot right around the PRO level that are rated 4's and 5's. The mentality of most teams in the APA is that you have to sandbag just to level the playing field.

Name one.

-djb

 

[DoomCue]

I happen to know APA officials who have been to many different parts of the country, and they say that sandbagging is everywhere, and it's gotten so bad that it's ridiculous.

Riiiiight, you heard from someone who heard from someone that everybody sandbags. Well, I guess it must be fact, then. You make it sound as though sandbagging's an epidemic and there isn't an honest bone in an APA player's body. I don't think sandbagging is anywhere near as prevalent as you characterize it. I've been to the APA Nationals, and I've been a member of 8 ball, 9 ball, and Masters teams. I personally have never seen a sandbagger. I've seen 4s and 5s get accused of sandbagging, when in reality, all they did was get lucky in a match. It's funny, if a not-so-good 7 gets beat by a good 4, the 4 must have been sandbagging to maintain being a 4. [SARCASM]There's no way he could have actually outplayed a 7 for 10 minutes. Nobody ever shoots over his ability. If you do, you're a sandbagger.[/SARCASM] If a 2 manages to run out a rack, he must be a sandbagger. That's BS. Anyone can be beaten, one match doesn't determine a sandbagger. Anybody can get hot and start making balls, especially if all the balls are sitting in front of pockets. Bad strategy by supposedly good players (6s and 7s) can let anyone win. If a player has a proven track record of being a higher quality player outside of APA and then maintains a low handicap in the APA, then he's a sandbagger. Like I said, personally, I've never seen it. I think more people are fooled by a preconceived notion of what a lower rated APA player should shoot like, and then when those notions don't match reality over a short period, they want to declare the player a sandbagger. One match does not a sandbagger make.

-djb

 

[alstl]

Riiiiight, you heard from someone who heard from someone that everybody sandbags. Well, I guess it must be fact, then. You make it sound as though sandbagging's an epidemic and there isn't an honest bone in an APA player's body. I don't think sandbagging is anywhere near as prevalent as you characterize it. I've been to the APA Nationals, and I've been a member of 8 ball, 9 ball, and Masters teams. I personally have never seen a sandbagger. I've seen 4s and 5s get accused of sandbagging, when in reality, all they did was get lucky in a match. It's funny, if a not-so-good 7 gets beat by a good 4, the 4 must have been sandbagging to maintain being a 4. [SARCASM]There's no way he could have actually outplayed a 7 for 10 minutes. Nobody ever shoots over his ability. If you do, you're a sandbagger.[/SARCASM] If a 2 manages to run out a rack, he must be a sandbagger. That's BS. Anyone can be beaten, one match doesn't determine a sandbagger. Anybody can get hot and start making balls, especially if all the balls are sitting in front of pockets. Bad strategy by supposedly good players (6s and 7s) can let anyone win. If a player has a proven track record of being a higher quality player outside of APA and then maintains a low handicap in the APA, then he's a sandbagger. Like I said, personally, I've never seen it. I think more people are fooled by a preconceived notion of what a lower rated APA player should shoot like, and then when those notions don't match reality over a short period, they want to declare the player a sandbagger. One match does not a sandbagger make.

-djb

That's an interesting perception, I'll tell you what happened to me. I'm not a very good player, just took the game up again about 6 months ago after retiring and I hadn't shot more than a game or two a year in the previous 30 years. I joined a league and they started me at a 2. The second week of the league I'm playing a kid with a house cue and I start hearing the other team captain complaining "This guy's not a 2, look at him." I proceed to miss a shot that Ray Charles could have made and lose to Mr House Cue, who was getting coached by the team captain before his shots. The next game is against the team captain, and I managed to make a couple nice shots and beat him. Now he's really not happy at all, and he is positive I was sandbagging against the other guy. It made me realize two things:

a) Some people have no idea what a good pool player looks like.

b) Some people take this league stuff a lot more seriously than I do.

 

[OldHasBeen]

Wow - I had no idea...........

I had no idea that this thread would generate so much response. I guess I didn't realize how many here at AZ were league players.
First let me clear some things up. This friend of my sons is on a team that consistently goes to Vegas. It is not the team my son plays on and it isn't even at the place where he plays. My son enjoys playing on his team as he is a novice and likes the concept of 1 night a week that he knows he will be playing better players and drinking beer. As a college junior, the latter is most important.
The APA is headquartered here in St. Louis and Larry & Terry are good friends of mine. I've known both for many years before Terry even came up with the original handicapping system and started the AB pool leagues.
Both Terry & Larry are great business people (and kazillionaires) and sure don't need any input from me.
When this whole league idea was started and it involved Louie, Buddy and a host of other players, the question was always asked - "How can we keep the real good pool players (poolroom regulars) from wanting to get involved".
My only input at that time was (and still is) - "That's Easy, Eliminate the Money". Without a monetary reward - there will be no sandbagging, hustling or deceit going on.
If the ultimate goal/reward was say a cruise, local restaurant package, expense paid trip to Disney World, Ski Trip, etc. - I don't think there would be many bonafide pool players interested in playing.

Now as far as my background - I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. To date, no one has ever paid any of my bills and I owe no one. I am in no way ashamed of my past and if anything, I am proud that a common Pool Hustler could raise two great kids that are getting a top college degree and becoming medical & legal professionals. I own and operate a direct mail advertising company doing business in 24 states, but I still love to play pool.

TY & GL

 

[Snapshot9]

Sandbagging ...

Sandbagging does not mean throwing a game necessarily.
Sometimes it means only winning after your opponent
makes at least 4 balls, or 5 balls, in a game. A proficient
player can control that most of the time, depending on
how good the opponent is, and most of the time, it is
with someone much less in handicap. Yes, sometimes it
might back fire, but doesn't most of the time.

Sandbagging occurs because:

1) Participation is more important than competition in todays
leagues and local tournaments.
2) Top teams know they will be playing each other in an
end of session, end of year tournament, and handicaps
might mean the difference between winning and losing.
3) Thinking about getting to Nationals in Vegas.
4) You know that dissimiliar levels of play exist in different
parts of the country (a 5 handicap in Va. may not be equal
to a 5 handicap in Tx.)
5) League averages are used by pool rooms to determine
handicaps for local tournaments, and a high handicap may
take money out of your pocket.
6) Players that play for money can always refer to their
league handicap when debating spots with another player.
7) Players, like me, are aware that even if I and another
player are both 10's in league, he is a 10.2 and I am a 10.9.
by my standards. (that is one reason why the BCA is the
most accurate with handicaps, because they are more finite.)

These are not all of the reasons, but a good portion of them.

With all of these reasons, and more, and the interrelationships
and effects it causes to players, can you really blame them
for sandbagging some of the time?

Sandbagging goes on all the time, in business everyday, in all
walks of life, everytime someone knows that have knowledge
about a subject and the other person has a 'lack of knowledge'
about the subject. How many of you have ever bought something
that you wished you hadn't? Especially after you found out more
about it later.

I still claim that the whole general attitude of our society has gone
from a 50's-60's attitude of 'Let the buyer beware' to 'Let the seller
be responsible' attitude. The sandbagging complaints are just part
of that shift in attitude.

 

[Icon of Sin]

First let me clear some things up. This friend of my sons is on a team that consistently goes to Vegas. It is not the team my son plays on and it isn't even at the place where he plays. My son enjoys playing on his team as he is a novice and likes the concept of 1 night a week that he knows he will be playing better players and drinking beer. As a college junior, the latter is most important.

Well your son's friend has to make a decision then.

1. Be forced to dump just so he can stay on the team that goes to vegas a lot. (With the sandbagging the captain is promoting, of course they go to vegas a lot)

2. Take the loss and be a chump for the team and do the unsportsmanlike thing just to have fun (if that's what you call being forced to dump) and drink beer.

Frankly I dont lay down for anyone on league or off league. If you are playing me then you are getting my best game possible at the time. But that is just me.

 

[Icon of Sin]

The captain told my son's friend that he had to lose on purpose to keep his standings.

Sandbagging does not mean throwing a game necessarily.

In this case it does. The captain wants him to throw the game to keep his skill level lower.

 

[Gregg]

Well, at least there is some passion around here about pool leagues.

I think that any time you play in any kind of handicap system, there is going to be debate. Be it APA, TAP, or your local 9 ball tournament at the pool hall. We can try, but it's impossible to setup a system where there will be no debate.

The healthy thing about handicapping systems is that a team point or split is the same for a SL2 as a SL7. This promotes competition, fun, and excitement. Without it, we would have ringers showing up every week blowing people out of the pool hall. When this happens, as we all know, the league or weekly tournament folds quick.

 

[Cory in DC]

I think more people are fooled by a preconceived notion of what a lower rated APA player should shoot like, and then when those notions don't match reality over a short period, they want to declare the player a sandbagger. One match does not a sandbagger make.-djb

I think that's exactly right. I think 4's especially are susceptible to these accusations. In my experience, there's two kinds of legitimate 4's.

One type looks almost like a 3, was a 3 for a long time, and now make shots slightly better. They can't really draw very far or force-follow, but their strategy and safety play are strong, at least against 2's-4's and some 5's. Those 4's are rarely mistaken for sandbaggers, though with the right matchups can easily go 60%+ over a season.

The other type is a pretty good shotmaker, likely came to the league thinking they were a good player based on often holding the table for a long time at their favorite bar. This guy can draw and follow the ball table length. So to the untrained eye, they look strong. These players, however, really can't control the cue ball, use draw and follow when it makes no sense to do so, can't control it when it might make sense, use english for no reason, or worse, use english to, in their mind, accomplish things that are in fact impossible, don't like to safety, play bad patterns, kill all their ducks before dealing with their clusters,... They lose a lot because they're good enough to really hurt themselves, running 4-6 balls and then getting stuck. Notwithstanding all of that, they will get out from tough spots, spots where I'd safety, now and then, maybe 1 in 7 to 1 in 12. And every time they make such an out, someone will say they're sandbagging.

If you (1) understand 8 ball strategy and patterns, and (2) watch the player over multiple games and sets, you'll see that they're not sandbaggers, they just take bad risks (hence their losses) that sometimes pay off (hence the wins and accusations).

The latter type of 4 will often do worse in the long run than the former, all the while getting accused of cheating. Of course, this type of 4 will eventually learn basic strategy, and at that point will probably go up to a 5. For some reason, though, they tend to be very stubborn about learning 8-ball strategy, so it can take a while. (If you can get them to gamble, they'll learn more quickly.)

As an aside, the latter type of 4 gets punished by the Equalizer and is more likely to go up than the former. Their handicap is based on the best 15 of their last 30 (or 10 of the last 20), so they can have a 50% record, with some of the wins at 5 and 6 speed, and the 10 losses where they got smashed not factoring in. Meanwhile the former player can cruise along at 60% for a long time and not go up. Basically the best X of your last 2X system really punishes high variance players, even if their mean is lower.

Cory

 

[pool]

There is only one hope for legitimate league handicapping.

Okay, you have me intrigued. What is this "...one hope for legitimate league handicapping?"

 

[ridewiththewind]

Where I live, there is no APA. We did have a TAP league start up here roughly 2 years ago, which started out strong, but they have been steadily losing teams ever since.

What has worked around here are our little independent leagues. We have a county-wide Womens 8 Ball League that has no handicapping whatsoever. You have very strong teams, and you have much weaker teams. Those womens who have a strong competetive spirit seek out placement on those stronger teams, while the others are just looking for a 'girls night out'. I have captained a team now for the last 4 years, and in that time, we have always placed in the top three in our division, and in the top 2 in play-offs.

While I strive to put together a strong team every year, I also make it a point to seek out those who are new and inexperienced to include as well. Yes, I like trophies, but I like getting new blood into the league even more. I love watching a player grow and enjoy themselves.

The 9 Ball League I play in is also an independent league. However, in this league we also track fouls and game won. You pay a nightly fee to shoot, and pay for your fouls. It's a bit more expensive to play from week to week, but everyone is looking for their standings at the end because the money that is collected each week goes toward a sending a total of 8-10 players to the Reno 9 Ball Open each year, all expenses paid. And there is no handicap in this league either.

I'm not sure why it works, but it does, and everyone involved seem to be very happy with it just the way it is.

Lisa

 

[Cardinal2B]

This friend of my sons is on a team that consistently goes to Vegas.

Look here, if handicapping were working properly, then no team, and no individual would or could "consistently go to Vegas." That's the point, to level the playing field so that a 4 has a 50/50 shot to beat a 2, another 4, or a 7.

I've played APA and TAP and would probably play BCA if it were operating at my pool hall - I mean I just want to play. I would show up on league night if there was no league, just looking for a game. But I'm probably not the norm.

I have a hard time believing that anyone playing league pool is unaware of sandbaggers (we've got 'em, and strangely they are not the best players, they are like 4-5 level in skill, but playing as 3's) and team captains that use uh, 'tactical retreats' to keep handicaps down. Some folks really value winning the local league trophy, regional league money/trophy tournaments, and going to Vegas. I don't think for the most part that's a money motivation, but an ego stroke.

This isn't limited to pool leagues. I play MSBL baseball (hardball for people over 28 yrs old). Its got tournaments too, and it is well known there are teams that "play down" - meaning they play at a lower skill level tournament just to win it.

OHB has the right notion - eliminate the money and you eliminate the sandbagging. But sandbagging / playing down / doggin' it always comes back if there is something of value at stake - and that could be a trip, or even just bragging rights at the local bar....not just cash.

One thing the leagues could do would be to limit the trips any individual could take (so you could only get to Vegas uh, semi-consistently). Other than that, you'll always have a mix of people who want to play for fun, have a few drinks, etc., honest competitors, and sandbaggers.

Let the player beware.

 

[catscradle]

...

OHB has the right notion - eliminate the money and you eliminate the sandbagging. But sandbagging / playing down / doggin' it always comes back if there is something of value at stake - and that could be a trip, or even just bragging rights at the local bar....not just cash.

...

I'm with you and OHB, that woudl eliminate the sandbagging (for the most part), but would it eliminate half the league too? People's eyes (not mine) light up when they hear about Vegas and a lot of them are people who might otherwise not play. Personally I just play for the sake of playing, that's why I never sandbag.

 

[ironman]

Ohb

I had no idea that this thread would generate so much response. I guess I didn't realize how many here at AZ were league players.
First let me clear some things up. This friend of my sons is on a team that consistently goes to Vegas. It is not the team my son plays on and it isn't even at the place where he plays. My son enjoys playing on his team as he is a novice and likes the concept of 1 night a week that he knows he will be playing better players and drinking beer. As a college junior, the latter is most important.
The APA is headquartered here in St. Louis and Larry & Terry are good friends of mine. I've known both for many years before Terry even came up with the original handicapping system and started the AB pool leagues.
Both Terry & Larry are great business people (and kazillionaires) and sure don't need any input from me.
When this whole league idea was started and it involved Louie, Buddy and a host of other players, the question was always asked - "How can we keep the real good pool players (poolroom regulars) from wanting to get involved".
My only input at that time was (and still is) - "That's Easy, Eliminate the Money". Without a monetary reward - there will be no sandbagging, hustling or deceit going on.
If the ultimate goal/reward was say a cruise, local restaurant package, expense paid trip to Disney World, Ski Trip, etc. - I don't think there would be many bonafide pool players interested in playing.

Now as far as my background - I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. To date, no one has ever paid any of my bills and I owe no one. I am in no way ashamed of my past and if anything, I am proud that a common Pool Hustler could raise two great kids that are getting a top college degree and becoming medical & legal professionals. I own and operate a direct mail advertising company doing business in 24 states, but I still love to play pool.

TY & GL

Well, I think you hit a nerve somewhere and I think it is just hilarious.
I'm not ashamed of the past either. In fact, I wish i could go back a few years, for a few days.

 

[lamar25]

I was not casting stones at anyone!

No, please don't throw rocks at OHB. What is the APA's house made of?

I was only voting for my choice of terms: Hustler vs. Sandbagger. "Hustler" is my choice.
"Have a nice day",
Lamar

 

[billfishhead]

in league play if you win you re a champion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you lose, you shoulda won,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what a batch of crap