My CTE/Pro One Struggles - Please Help

nobcitypool

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been working on CTE/Pro One for a couple of months now. The initial month, I was putting 3 to 4 hours each and every day into it. I wasn't seeing the kind of progress that I was expecting and have backed off it a fair amount since then. I actually spent a few weeks experimenting with SEE as I had, at one point, purchased training materials for that system.

I have a lesson scheduled with Stan the third week of March. I'd like to put in some more time with the system prior to that lesson.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, as it is perception, but I don't feel like I have much difficulty finding the correct visuals. If I'm seeing it correctly, there are only two visuals you can see on most shots those being either CTE/ET(AorC depending upon which way the cut goes) or CTE, ETB. If I align my dominant eye from CCB to COB, and move my head right or left, the first time I see CTE is when A or C is the other visual. If I keep moving my head, the next time I get a visual of CTE is when you have ETB. I say this but perhaps somehow I am mistaken. Please clarify.

Assuming I am getting the correct visuals, obviously, I'm missing the pocket due to what is happening from there. That leaves two potential culprits, either my move into CCB or my stroke. When I'm practicing CTE/Pro One, I do several things to take the "bad stroke" element out of the equation. One is stay strictly on CCB and to stay as close to the center vertical axis as possible. Another is to take a shorter back stroke to make sure a long backstroke isn't putting some "crook" into my delivery. I also try to maintain a 4 speed (20 diamonds travel up and back) to make sure I don't stress my stroke in any manner. In other words, I have no concern about working on CB position, I am simply trying to learn and prove out the aiming process.

I have watched the DVD totally through 5 to 10 times. I have watched the Pro One sections 12 to 20 times, some more than others. I have tried what appeared to be the way Stan moved into CCB primarily. I've found this will work on the thicker cuts fairly well even though it often leaves me feeling all corkscrewed up with my body/stance alignment. Thinner cuts with a right sweep are near impossible using what I perceived. To clarify here, there is nothing on the DVD relating to footwork or realignment. It always appeared to me with Stan that his legs stayed relatively still. Somewhere in the DVD, he even mentioned bending over slightly to get your visuals when right sweeps are involved. I took this as a solution to being "jammed up".

I will practice on the kind of "proposition" shots Stan has set up on the sheets he sends. I can do those quite well, the misses that do occur are very close. I can accept that on a 9' Diamond for now. However, when I "so to speak" take it to the table" and actually play with it, that falls apart. Most misses still reasonably close but way too many misses to even consider this for playing competitively. I would add, taking it to the table in this case means playing the ghost. I still use the same approach in not being concerned about CB position but simply wanting to see a variety of shots to attempt. Those practice proposition shots are all fine and dandy but at some point, who is to say that I'm making them with Pro One or just from memory.

I think I get it, i.e., once I get the visuals, I'm simply trying to figure out how to move into CCB with a half pivot. I would guess most people find it easier to use a left pivot. Whenever the sweep is smaller (most thick cuts), I actually find it more effective and comfortable using the opposite visuals and right sweep.

I tried the step in approach after watching the video BobN posted. This seemed to help but also didn't seem to be completely consistent when the distance between CB and OB started to vary much. After reading Stan's post where he "discounted" this approach as not being a viable solution, but did comment that footwork was necessary, I'm even more frustrated.

I read more and more comments about the visual sweeps. Okay, I must be missing it. I apparently am not sweeping correctly, it is eluding me. And all that's nice but regardless of the visual sweeps, there are still physical movements involved. There are so many different things said to. Step in right, step in left. Sweep in with the CTE visual in mind. Move in directly to CCB. Perhaps all of these can be made to work. Apparently they are as people who are claiming success and posting nice videos are describing these somewhat conflicting processes.

I'm really encouraged by all the success stories and videos being posted. Conceptually, I like the idea of the Pro One approach. I'm simply beginning to wonder if I'm going to be able to make it work for me. To make it perfectly clear, I'm not being critical of the system, I'm acknowledging my own shortcomings and seeking help to try and overcome them.
 
Hang in there til your lesson with Stan! I used to practice only 3 shots before I gradually moved to other shots! Try placing CB @ 10 and OB @ 5 with Stan's table diagram! Also try CB @28 and OB @38!! Shoot these shots over and over again! Also set up the 4-way shot that Stevie shoots and visually see what Stevie sees! Also visit Chapter 13 again! Hope this helps!
 
leafs, to clarify, I am only practicing Pro One. I have put in zero time with CTE and manual pivots as I honestly never imagined playing pool and utilizing a manual pivot.
 
Actually, I tend undercut with left pivots and over cut more with right pivots. When I'm practicing though, if I'm undercutting, I'll try to make an adjustment. Point is, I'm not getting true consistency. If everything would be undercut by 1/2 inch, how tough would it be to make that adjustment? Not much.

I think it is the foot work and body movement that is screwing me up. When I try to remain rather static though, my body alignment is often screwed up and I feel like a pretzel. I figured out early on that simply can't be right. The DVD however hasn't led me to understand the footwork. When I watched Stevie Moore on the DVD, I couldn't really see him doing anything other than moving straight into the CB.
 
nobcitypool said:
Actually, I tend undercut with left pivots and over cut more with right pivots. When I'm practicing though, if I'm undercutting, I'll try to make an adjustment. Point is, I'm not getting true consistency. If everything would be undercut by 1/2 inch, how tough would it be to make that adjustment? Not much.

I think it is the foot work and body movement that is screwing me up. When I try to remain rather static though, my body alignment is often screwed up and I feel like a pretzel. I figured out early on that simply can't be right. The DVD however hasn't led me to understand the footwork. When I watched Stevie Moore on the DVD, I couldn't really see him doing anything other than moving straight into the CB.
Click to expand...

I am getting the hang of pro one, still practicing it whenever i can. I notice what helped me the most is to watch what shots are shown in the DVD and practice those shot to get use to the pivot in pro one or now being called visual sweeps.

My advice is right now just don't focus on the foot or body movement. Be comfortable and remember to let the eyes lead. I just imagine the CTEL line to the edge of the object ball and my eyes either move to the right or left side of the CTEL line and my body naturally pivots to that direction.
 
nobcitypool said:
I've been working on CTE/Pro One for a couple of months now. The initial month, I was putting 3 to 4 hours each and every day into it. I wasn't seeing the kind of progress that I was expecting and have backed off it a fair amount since then. I actually spent a few weeks experimenting with SEE as I had, at one point, purchased training materials for that system.

I have a lesson scheduled with Stan the third week of March. I'd like to put in some more time with the system prior to that lesson.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, as it is perception, but I don't feel like I have much difficulty finding the correct visuals. If I'm seeing it correctly, there are only two visuals you can see on most shots those being either CTE/ET(AorC depending upon which way the cut goes) or CTE, ETB. If I align my dominant eye from CCB to COB, and move my head right or left, the first time I see CTE is when A or C is the other visual. If I keep moving my head, the next time I get a visual of CTE is when you have ETB. I say this but perhaps somehow I am mistaken. Please clarify.

Assuming I am getting the correct visuals, obviously, I'm missing the pocket due to what is happening from there. That leaves two potential culprits, either my move into CCB or my stroke. When I'm practicing CTE/Pro One, I do several things to take the "bad stroke" element out of the equation. One is stay strictly on CCB and to stay as close to the center vertical axis as possible. Another is to take a shorter back stroke to make sure a long backstroke isn't putting some "crook" into my delivery. I also try to maintain a 4 speed (20 diamonds travel up and back) to make sure I don't stress my stroke in any manner. In other words, I have no concern about working on CB position, I am simply trying to learn and prove out the aiming process.

I have watched the DVD totally through 5 to 10 times. I have watched the Pro One sections 12 to 20 times, some more than others. I have tried what appeared to be the way Stan moved into CCB primarily. I've found this will work on the thicker cuts fairly well even though it often leaves me feeling all corkscrewed up with my body/stance alignment. Thinner cuts with a right sweep are near impossible using what I perceived. To clarify here, there is nothing on the DVD relating to footwork or realignment. It always appeared to me with Stan that his legs stayed relatively still. Somewhere in the DVD, he even mentioned bending over slightly to get your visuals when right sweeps are involved. I took this as a solution to being "jammed up".

I will practice on the kind of "proposition" shots Stan has set up on the sheets he sends. I can do those quite well, the misses that do occur are very close. I can accept that on a 9' Diamond for now. However, when I "so to speak" take it to the table" and actually play with it, that falls apart. Most misses still reasonably close but way too many misses to even consider this for playing competitively. I would add, taking it to the table in this case means playing the ghost. I still use the same approach in not being concerned about CB position but simply wanting to see a variety of shots to attempt. Those practice proposition shots are all fine and dandy but at some point, who is to say that I'm making them with Pro One or just from memory.

I think I get it, i.e., once I get the visuals, I'm simply trying to figure out how to move into CCB with a half pivot. I would guess most people find it easier to use a left pivot. Whenever the sweep is smaller (most thick cuts), I actually find it more effective and comfortable using the opposite visuals and right sweep.

I tried the step in approach after watching the video BobN posted. This seemed to help but also didn't seem to be completely consistent when the distance between CB and OB started to vary much. After reading Stan's post where he "discounted" this approach as not being a viable solution, but did comment that footwork was necessary, I'm even more frustrated.

I read more and more comments about the visual sweeps. Okay, I must be missing it. I apparently am not sweeping correctly, it is eluding me. And all that's nice but regardless of the visual sweeps, there are still physical movements involved. There are so many different things said to. Step in right, step in left. Sweep in with the CTE visual in mind. Move in directly to CCB. Perhaps all of these can be made to work. Apparently they are as people who are claiming success and posting nice videos are describing these somewhat conflicting processes.

I'm really encouraged by all the success stories and videos being posted. Conceptually, I like the idea of the Pro One approach. I'm simply beginning to wonder if I'm going to be able to make it work for me. To make it perfectly clear, I'm not being critical of the system, I'm acknowledging my own shortcomings and seeking help to try and overcome them.
Click to expand...

When I first got the DVD I was also frustrated by the secondary lines. I played with a little bit enough to know it works but I also didn't want to have to "memorize" formulas for each shot position. Although I could see that this was accurate I was put off by it. I wanted a pure ball-to-ball solution that was independent of having to decide on which aiming point to pick. I had also been introduced to this by Hal who had given me a way to do just that and it worked pretty good. I had missed getting CTE directly from Hal so I was half stuck trying to piece it together with what I could glean from the forum, what I could work out on my own, and with some generous private help.

For a long time I figured that my "version" of CTE such as it is was working pretty good and in fact it does work pretty well. But after seeing Gerry running racks I decided to go back and give Stan's way another try. I haven't had much time to practice but one thing I have done is to set up the reference shots and shoot it with the given visuals, with the other visuals to note what happens and then I move the object ball a bit to try the visuals and keep going until they don't work and then I move to another one. I found that this method is definitely more accurate, to the point that I am kicking myself for thinking I didn't need it.

As for getting lessons from Stan, I think that this is what will crack it for you. The reason I say that is when I was teaching people to jump I had to become really good at spotting the problem and equally good at having several ways to convey the solution.

Regarding Bob's footwork video I think you should take all the information you see and just think about it and try it. Honestly in my lifetime I have seen the weirdest examples work on people to get them to snap to a method. When I was a trampolinist we used to do a move called a Cody, which is a back flip from your stomach to your stomach. No matter how I tried I just could not understand or make myself do it. Then one day after everyone was gone my coach asked me to try it again and he said imagine I have a Playboy open to the centerfold and you are looking back for it. I flipped the cody on the first try and after that it was never a problem again.

All of us are good people working with our own perceptions and physical limitations, good and bad habits, vision issues, stuck in old ways, and so on. As I have always said the more people who truly work with a method the more insight we all gain.
 
Yes it is. Stan moved away from Pivot because in Pro One the "pivot" is with the eyes as we move into CCB - therefore visual sweep makes more sense.

Sweep and rotation to CCB mean the same thing.

Stick with it - your time with Stan will help clear up a lot.

It can be frustrating - I told Stan I quit 3 times during 3 months, it is an adjustment initially but it does become second nature. The system takes away the pressure of finding the shot line - you will then just need to focus on delivering a straight stroke.

Cheers,
Gerry

leafs07 said:
I am thinking this "visual sweep" has confused a lot of people. I believe a visual sweep is a pro1 pivot from the first dvd and a manual pivot from the first dvd is a now rotation to center cue ball ... I am guessing at this?
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I thought I was the only one having troubles with CTE.
I think that a lesson with Stan will sought you out and I wish I had that option.
I'm unable to do the manual pivot CTE funny enough because just like yourself my was rotating like a cork screw and upper body twisting was going on and it was just plain down right awkward.
It didn't matter how I approched the visuals It was really uncomfortable.
I must add that I knew that I was just not getting it and that it was myself to blame and not the system.

I've moved on to Pro one which is a lot smoother but I've still got a long way to go as I'm still getting lots of just misses.
Hopefully Stan can fully explain exactly how to move in to your visuals in DVD2.
I think that a lesson would make a huge difference.
Peace
 
Once you spend that time with Stan, you'll be shocked how easy this is to do. In the meantime, don't give up! One thing I would really like to stress is that after you get your visuals, the sweep to the cue ball is so subtle that it's hardly noticeable. I've been doing this long enough that when I see someone in a pool room or on a video using pro one, I can spot it in an instant, but unless you have become proficient at the "moves" it's really hard to see exactly what those moves are, especially in a video. Once you learn them, then you'll go back and watch Pro One DVD1 and see Stevie, Stan or Landon and say "Wow... I see what they're doing now!!!". Meanwhile, keep this in mind. Pro One was born of CTE with a half tip pivot. Learn to effectviely use the half tip pivot method and then learning Pro One becomes easy.

Eventually, you'll get "automatic" with it. As I said in the short video that I did on the visual sweeps, I don't even take my eyes to the edge of the CB to start my visual sweep anymore, but I've been using Pro One for 2 years... it IS automatic to me now. Also, adjust HOW you see your lines. For me, I have to bend over quite a bit more than Stan to see the lines well. I'm quite a bit taller than Stan, so his perception in a standing position is quite different than mine is the same relative position. I have to bend at the waist and make myself, in effect, a few inches shorter to see the lines well. In other words, I have to adjust my height to find the same "perception" that Stan sees. A more extreme example, go on youtube or somewhere online and watch Stevie Moore use Pro One... talk about getting low to get his visuals... of course, Stevie is young and can bend better than me... I don't know if I could even see them that low... doesn't matter! If I try to get that low, my back says "OH, NO... you ain't doin' that, fat boy!" In any case, once I found that right way to bend, for ME, then the lines became glaringly obvious. Same with the sweeps, at longer distances, they fooled me, sometimes, so, in essence, I've had to shoot those shots over and over to ingrain in my subconscious which sweeps to make. Now, I just get behind the CB Center, find the edge of the OB and honestly, I don't pay attention anymore to A,B and C. Now that might NOT be the right way to approach this, but in this "automatic" mode that I use with Pro One NOW, it works well for me... VERY WELL. DO NOT TRY TO FORCE THIS PHASE OF LEARNING PRO ONE!!!! It will come on it's own, once you have this system deeply ingrained in your brain. With me, I was being very mechanical with my sweeps then one day, I just noticed that I wasn't looking at the edge of the CB anymore. THAT will come with time. If you try to "force" it, then you'll shortcut yourself right into disaster! Again, just my opinion!

I just sent a message to another forum member that is having a little problem finding the pocket with Pro One on his own (no way he can travel to Stan for lessons) and I'll tell you the same thing I told him. Pro One was born of the 1/2 tip pivot method. Learn that... set up one simple shot and shoot it 50 times using the 1/2 tip pivot, then set up that same shot and shoot it with Pro One until you KNOW that visual sweep PERFECTLY! . This will help you develop a "memory" or feel for the visual sweep. For me to completely understand Pro One, I had to completely understand it's Mother, the 1/2 tip pivot. I had a little head start on that. I had countless hours of conversation with Hal Houle about pivot aiming, years ago, so I had a very good foundation in it. That made Pro One a little easier to understand. For those that do not, I'd recommend you work on the half tip pivot enough that you understand it well. As I said, Pro One was born of the half tip pivot. You need to at least have a good understanding of 1/2 tip pivots, in my opinion, to really understand Pro One.

I am really anxious for you to spend your time with Stan then hear from you after a couple of weeks of applying his method and see what you're doing with it, then.
 
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nobcitypool said:
Assuming I am getting the correct visuals, obviously, I'm missing the pocket due to what is happening from there. That leaves two potential culprits, either my move into CCB or my stroke. When I'm practicing CTE/Pro One, I do several things to take the "bad stroke" element out of the equation. One is stay strictly on CCB and to stay as close to the center vertical axis as possible. Another is to take a shorter back stroke to make sure a long backstroke isn't putting some "crook" into my delivery. I also try to maintain a 4 speed (20 diamonds travel up and back) to make sure I don't stress my stroke in any manner. In other words, I have no concern about working on CB position, I am simply trying to learn and prove out the aiming process.


I tried the step in approach after watching the video BobN posted. This seemed to help but also didn't seem to be completely consistent when the distance between CB and OB started to vary much. After reading Stan's post where he "discounted" this approach as not being a viable solution, but did comment that footwork was necessary, I'm even more frustrated.
.
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A couple of comments:

Even though you have ruled out stroke as a problem, I think it would be a good idea, should you concur, that I do a video stroke analysis for you. ( no charge for that)

PRO ONE is simply SEE and SHOOT. At this point your shot making should be at least up to normal for you. Pro One is very simple. Once you have a visual alignment, you just go to CCB ( and tweak if necessary)and shoot your normal shot from there.


Also, concerning the BobN video, I did not discount his video. Bob's video is quite good. His video is on my Facebook. My comments concerning his video were not intended to be negative. Footwork is individual due to lots of reasons. The commonality is that the feet will move and that the movements are often very slight. I think Bob did a great job explaining his individual approach for his movements to CCB. He has helped others for sure. I plan on doing something similar myself for youtube showing my individual footwork.

Stan Shuffett
 
nobcitypool said:
leafs, to clarify, I am only practicing Pro One. I have put in zero time with CTE and manual pivots as I honestly never imagined playing pool and utilizing a manual pivot.
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That might be your problem. You can't run before learning to walk.

I suggest rewatching the manual CTE portion of the DVD, and then practicing all the reference shots with just that.

It's possible either your visuals aren't right or you aren't coming into CCB correctly. Manual CTE will at least let you know if your visuals are good or not.
 
leafs07 said:
This is true :) I have seen high percentage of guys wanting to jump right into pro1 and skip the manual part, fail and give up and then say "this system may work some but not all". I guess they believe its not cool to manually pivot for a month or so and then move on to a pro1 pivot?
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I think he might not be lining up properly to his visuals as well! He says he lines up CCB to Center object ball and then tries to find his secondary alignment! That would not put you on the proper alignment!!
 
pablocruz said:
I think he might not be lining up properly to his visuals as well! He says he lines up CCB to Center object ball and then tries to find his secondary alignment! That would not put you on the proper alignment!!
Click to expand...

I always find my aim line first, and then try to see the CTEL at the same time.
 
JB Cases said:
When I was a trampolinist we used to do a move called a Cody, which is a back flip from your stomach to your stomach. No matter how I tried I just could not understand or make myself do it. Then one day after everyone was gone my coach asked me to try it again and he said imagine I have a Playboy open to the centerfold and you are looking back for it. I flipped the cody on the first try and after that it was never a problem again.
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video or it didn't happen :grin:
 
pablocruz said:
I think he might not be lining up properly to his visuals as well! He says he lines up CCB to Center object ball and then tries to find his secondary alignment! That would not put you on the proper alignment!!
Click to expand...

That's not what I said at all, please read it again. I described what I do and asked if that was correct. What you described there was essentially the visual for a 1/2 ball shot. I was saying that from my perspective, I believe the visuals aren't that hard since I can only find two perspectives that provide the correct visual. I'm not saying how I'm doing it is correct, however, what you described as your perception of my description is not correct either.
 
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nobcitypool said:
That's not what I said at all, please read it again. I described what I do and asked if that was correct. What you described there was essentially the visual for a 1/2 ball shot. I was saying that from my perspective, I believe the visuals are that hard since I can only find two perspectives that provide the correct visual. I'm not saying how I'm doing it is correct, however, what you described as your perception of my description is not correct either.
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I described a full ball hit!Sorry 'bout that! I misinterpreted your description! I stand corrected!
 
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Based on the feedback, I will give CTE Manual a try. I originally went to Stan's somewhere around 3 or 4 years ago. It was prior to the DVD coming out. He wasn't covering Pro One, it was all the manual CTE. I'm not sure Stan was really ready to roll out the system yet and I sure didn't get what he was teaching that day at all. That soured me completely on the whole CTE/Pro One thing up until a couple of months ago when I decided to give it another try.

I have no question that my stroke occasionally plays into the equation. Part of that is not understanding how to move into the ball without a bunch of contortions. Hard to execute a straight stroke when you're bent up like a pretzel. All I can tell you is that I have a drill, one of the SPF Mother Drills, where I can align Center CB to Center OB on preset positions with the hole reinforcers. I can set that up, make 10 dead center pocket and then switch to Pro One and be lucky to make 5. My point is, if my stroke were the PRIMARY contributor to the problem, if Pro One were working for me, you'd think my pocketing rate would be as least as high as with Pro One as without it. Easier to shoot the messenger I guess than accept the message.
 
If you feel you are bent up like a pretzel then I suspect the Pro One sweeps might be overdone. It is a very subtle and simple movement. It took me some time as well, I would over-rotate etc...you will get it through repetition.
 
Gerry Williams said:
If you feel you are bent up like a pretzel then I suspect the Pro One sweeps might be overdone. It is a very subtle and simple movement. It took me some time as well, I would over-rotate etc...you will get it through repetition.
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Exactly! Once you find your visuals, it isn't so much as a step, or pivot, it's more of a rotation! Sorta like doing the twist! You are still balanced, just doing a little hip rotation!!
Like a golfer clears his hips, he is still balanced!!
 
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nobcitypool said:
Based on the feedback, I will give CTE Manual a try. I originally went to Stan's somewhere around 3 or 4 years ago. It was prior to the DVD coming out. He wasn't covering Pro One, it was all the manual CTE. I'm not sure Stan was really ready to roll out the system yet and I sure didn't get what he was teaching that day at all. That soured me completely on the whole CTE/Pro One thing up until a couple of months ago when I decided to give it another try.

I have no question that my stroke occasionally plays into the equation. Part of that is not understanding how to move into the ball without a bunch of contortions. Hard to execute a straight stroke when you're bent up like a pretzel. All I can tell you is that I have a drill, one of the SPF Mother Drills, where I can align Center CB to Center OB on preset positions with the hole reinforcers. I can set that up, make 10 dead center pocket and then switch to Pro One and be lucky to make 5. My point is, if my stroke were the PRIMARY contributor to the problem, if Pro One were working for me, you'd think my pocketing rate would be as least as high as with Pro One as without it. Easier to shoot the messenger I guess than accept the message.
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Actually, I taught Pro One when you were here. I am sure that I likely based it on manual pivoting, though. I was working on DVD1 when you were here so I would have done both.

Manual pivoting is not a requirement for learning CTE PRO ONE. It is great know, though, for system understanding and for the testing of some shots.

There are no contortions in PRO ONE. There is nothing mechanical about Pro One. It is completely natural. If you are experiencing contortions then you are not allowing your feet/body to move into congruency with your eyes and the shot line.

For straight-in shots the movement to CCB is as natural as it can be so your Pro One movements are definitely incorrect there as well.

Stan Shuffett
 
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