My first point forearm
- Thread starter SK Custom Cues
- Start date
Wow...i guess my last comment in the original post was confirmed...but i'm sure this won't go unanswered "can't wait to hear the brilliant response" as most of the fellows on here who dish it out can't take it:grin:
Anyway, maybe this guy was questioning the integrity of the cuemaker and not the the way the points were constructed.
What is the proper V-cutter angle to do this? And where do you get the odd sized cutter?
dave sutton
Banned
well... look at it this way. numbers dont lie. there are only 2 cuemakers ive seen that stack veneers. sw and prather. no top maker will do venners this way. why do you think that is?
i would almost bet you cant find another
Well, I'm not sure what you said that I was supposed to have confirmed but if you feel that it has then good for you. To some people, taking short cuts and the easy, safe way is the is fine. To many others, however, people appreciate and demand attention to detail. Mediocrity is not tolerated. Attention to the finer aspects of cue building or any such endeavor is what separates the two types of people. It's plain to see which group you fall into. And, would you please refer to me what that has been said that my integrity should be in question. Is it because I stated that in your opinion that mediocrity is fine and that people shouldn't expect more. Hmmm
Dick
I guess that you wouldn't call him a "top" cuemaker but I was in Woody Woodworth's shop a while back and he had some forearms in progress. They were all stacked veneers. I think he called it butt spliced. He may do mitered as well, but none of his work that I saw was mitered.
the point was for people to do what works and is unique for them...not to follow suit, because its become some kind of industry standard....anyway, the guys that stay unique will last
I would say that WW is a top cuemaker...especially from a percentage standpoint if you consider all the cuemakers there are now.
I would say that WW is a top cuemaker...especially from a percentage standpoint if you consider all the cuemakers there are now.
I think they both look nice and each have pros and cons. The stacked method is safe and easy but it is time consuming and there was more wasted wood, the way I was doing it at least. The mitered way is much faster, less waste, but it can go south very easily if setup and execution aren't perfect.
I offer both methods and each have their own disciplines.
Only hacks stack veneers 
I haven't seen to many 1 and 2 veneer clean mitered cues. Both systems are a definate plus to any cue maker.
I started to add that to my post on mitered veneers but I just assumed most would understand that it would be almost impossible to miter one veneer and a little difficult to get perfect 2 veneers but it can be done when folded. I have only done two cues with two veneers. I've done a few with one contrasting color just for a outline but almost all of my six pointers are three and 4 pointers four veneers. I have found that the folding method, once the drawbacks are determined and mastered, is the easiest way to get great mitered veneer work.
I made a pass on this prong this afternoon.
Dick
Hi Dick
Remember the definition of the word assume. :grin-square:
My point is, in today's market place, Only someone closed minded would choose to not learn the over lap method, No disrespect intended to Dave Sutton, he's a good forum player. But not everyone wants multiple veneers. As Cue makers we owe it to ourselves to learn as many methods of doing things as possible. It makes us Cue makers and Craftsmen.
Example,
How many ways can you think of to miter a veneer?
Table saw, blade tilted
Table saw, mitered blade with the use of a sled
Milling machine and CNC
Router table
Flush router mounted using two pieces of wood clamped that hold the veneers on a 45
Belt sander
Plainer
Jointer
Lathe using a mounted router and a fixed holder chuck to live center which is basically a make shift milling machine.
Example of over lapped,
Probably the same amount as long as you remember, Flat is the key to the equation.
I didn't and won't mention anything about time, it doesn't exist in learning the construction of a quality product. The best method is the one you are most comfortable with, but unless they are tried, How do you know. When people ask you a question, They want to hear why you do something a certain way with confidence, They never want to hear, I do this because so an so said it's the best way. If you do, you just lost their confidence in you. It doesn't matter who you might quote either, Your not them. All of the above, you already know.
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To SK Cues, Learn as many methods as possible and have fun learning them.
Asst. Veneer samples, Both methods, over lapped and mitered
Asst. Veneer samples, Both methods, over lapped and mitered
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Of coarse your right and any time someone on this forum mentions an alternate way of getting from A to B I try it out if I hadn't already done so in the past. I started in this business well before there were books, DVDs and forums to give information just for the asking. No cue maker would tell you anything, unless it was dead wrong, until you become a knowledgeable cue maker yourself. Learn on your own through trial and error. To this day that is actually the best way to learn as then you are much more apt to remember the errors and why they didn't work. So many times I've, and others, have posted a simple technique or jig for accomplishing something and most think well who wouldn't know that but the thing is, until it is told to them it had never occurred. Most on these forums are hobbiest. Many find a new way, to them, to do something and it might be a great idea but chances are, it's been done by many before him. Also, often I've seen techniques and materials being used that I know is not sound as I've tried the same and if you speak up often again you are nothing more than a elite or no it all. I've cut back on many details as far as techniques, jigs and materials are concerned. I've been letting others feel their oats. They will learn in the long run, if they stay at it, with my help or not.
Considering this thread. The man had posted pictures of his first veneered points. There is three stages to making up your mitered veneers. The gluing of the veneer stack which looked very good in this instance in my opinion. The second stage is cutting this veneer stack at a perfect 45 deg angle and the third is to glue these 45 deg angles to form a perfect 90 deg with as little glue line as possible. I stated that the cutting of the 45 deg angles and the glue up was very far from what would be tolerable in a custom cue. The man new it and agreed. This was not to done to besmirch him nor slam him in any way. It was just stating a fact and one that needed immediate attention. This is one area in cue making where it is very hard to learn the technique on your own. I once showed a simple jig that can make perfect 45 deg cuts using a table saw. This can make perfect 90 deg angles but this depends if your glue up is perfect. When cutting the veneer stacks in two it is much more difficult gluing them back together perfectly. The easiest and best way of mitering a veneer stack is the folding method, as far as I'm concerned. Everyone can't easily do this however as they don't have the equipment and the correct V-cutter as no one makes them. Lee's blade and fixture may work great but since I've never used one I don't know.
Dick
I agree my friend. Tap, Tap.
Thank you. I will learn both. I tried cutting some veneers on my table saw and it was not very fun. I used a woodworker II and I think I'm going to switch to my 60 tooth Freud. Also, that's interesting. I never thought to angle my jointer fence and do it that way. I think if I offset the bed less than 1/32" it would shave just enough off without tearing out too much.
I do have wood working experience prior to making cues, so actually when it comes to stuff like this, I see plenty of options....
I appreciate everyone's input, and agree that I should learn and experiment with all sorts of different methods. My next one is a titlist veneer / pink ivory into birdeye..... going to glue up this weekend..... so exciting.....
I do have wood working experience prior to making cues, so actually when it comes to stuff like this, I see plenty of options....
I appreciate everyone's input, and agree that I should learn and experiment with all sorts of different methods. My next one is a titlist veneer / pink ivory into birdeye..... going to glue up this weekend..... so exciting.....
To SK Cues, Learn as many methods as possible and have fun learning them.
Asst. Veneer samples, Both methods, over lapped and mitered
Thank you. I will learn both. I tried cutting some veneers on my table saw and it was not very fun. I used a woodworker II and I think I'm going to switch to my 60 tooth Freud. Also, that's interesting. I never thought to angle my jointer fence and do it that way. I think if I offset the bed less than 1/32" it would shave just enough off without tearing out too much.
I do have wood working experience prior to making cues, so actually when it comes to stuff like this, I see plenty of options....
I appreciate everyone's input, and agree that I should learn and experiment with all sorts of different methods. My next one is a titlist veneer / pink ivory into birdeye..... going to glue up this weekend..... so exciting.....
PM sent
Dick
To SK Cues, Learn as many methods as possible and have fun learning them.
Asst. Veneer samples, Both methods, over lapped and mitered
Nice Rack.
I hadn't discovered this forum until after I had built a couple of cues. My first cue had points and used the overlap method. I didn't like the results, but a lot probably had to do with glues that I used.
I was determined to learn how to do miters. I tried every machine I owned to accomplish this (Router, Lathe, Mill, Jointer, Band Saw and Belt Sander). None of them got me the results I wanted. I then built a jig for the table saw and the miters were perfect. I was so proud of that jig and thought I had discovered something. Several weeks later, Dick posted a picture of his jig on AZ and it was almost a carbon copy of mine. As he said, pretty much everything has been done before.
Once I got the miter cuts down, I was still not happy with the results, so I posted a question on here and got lots of opinions on what glues to use (mostly via pm's). I applied what I was told and figured out what worked best for me. I used that method for about a year and changed the way I glue things up a little bit.
I still do my miters on the table saw. I cut all of the veneers in half, miter them and glue them back up. I have virtually no glue lines in even light colored veneers (I recently threw out a forearm though because one of the miters wasn't good enough). It's not that difficult, it just takes practice. My first cue with mitered veneers was my fourth cue. The miters in that cue look the same as in a cue I would make today. It is possible to do one or two veneers when cutting them in half. I've done it a few times. I'm not sure if I ever finished the cues that I did it on, but that would have been for other reasons, not the veneers.
As for the fixture and blade, I don't think that just buying the blade and the jig is going to get you perfect veneers. You have the mount the jig permanently to your table saw. A lot of people are buying a cheap $100 table saw for this. I would bet the blade has some run out, which would cause your angles to be off. Also, unless your fixture is mounted perfectly parallel to the blade, you are going to have a rounded bottom and sides in your cut.
The table saw can work great without spending any more money. Just keep playing with it until you get it right. Once you figure it out, it should work every time.
I was determined to learn how to do miters. I tried every machine I owned to accomplish this (Router, Lathe, Mill, Jointer, Band Saw and Belt Sander). None of them got me the results I wanted. I then built a jig for the table saw and the miters were perfect. I was so proud of that jig and thought I had discovered something. Several weeks later, Dick posted a picture of his jig on AZ and it was almost a carbon copy of mine. As he said, pretty much everything has been done before.
Once I got the miter cuts down, I was still not happy with the results, so I posted a question on here and got lots of opinions on what glues to use (mostly via pm's). I applied what I was told and figured out what worked best for me. I used that method for about a year and changed the way I glue things up a little bit.
I still do my miters on the table saw. I cut all of the veneers in half, miter them and glue them back up. I have virtually no glue lines in even light colored veneers (I recently threw out a forearm though because one of the miters wasn't good enough). It's not that difficult, it just takes practice. My first cue with mitered veneers was my fourth cue. The miters in that cue look the same as in a cue I would make today. It is possible to do one or two veneers when cutting them in half. I've done it a few times. I'm not sure if I ever finished the cues that I did it on, but that would have been for other reasons, not the veneers.
As for the fixture and blade, I don't think that just buying the blade and the jig is going to get you perfect veneers. You have the mount the jig permanently to your table saw. A lot of people are buying a cheap $100 table saw for this. I would bet the blade has some run out, which would cause your angles to be off. Also, unless your fixture is mounted perfectly parallel to the blade, you are going to have a rounded bottom and sides in your cut.
The table saw can work great without spending any more money. Just keep playing with it until you get it right. Once you figure it out, it should work every time.