My thoughts on a new billiards game.

[Celtic]

This is largely a repost from the BCA thread which is dead.

Billiards needs a new game that increases the skill requirements of the players, brings in tougher elements to the game more often so that the spectators are not seeing one cool tough shot every 2 or 3 racks between otherwise routine position play and simple pots.

I think a great game to play would be a 15 ball rotation game where each ball is worth 1 point.

The game would be called ball and pocket, any extra balls you make count as long as you make the called shot.

Balls made on the break are wild. 1 is racked at the top and must be contacted first to be a legal shot, the 2 and 3 are racked in the 2 back corners while the 4 is placed in the back center of the rack, the rest are placed randomly.

You would race to a multiple of 15 points, so a set might be first player to 30, or 45, or 60, ect...

The rules to a large degree would be identical to Grady's 9-ball rules especially with the opponents options of passing the shot back to a player on a safe where a ball is pocketed or a miss on a called shot.

GRADY’S NINE BALL RULES


It’s call shot but it is not necessary to call obvious shots.

Only one ball may be called on one shot.

If the called ball is pocketed legally, everything else that might go is good.

If a player misses a called shot, his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.

Nothing spots up except the 9 ball.

If a player calls “safe” and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.

A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.

While this is not a foul, remember that the opponent will have “option”.

Players rack their own balls. There is no checking the rack.

They may also have a friend rack the balls for them.

An opponent may not rack the balls.

The 9 ball must be pocketed last to win the game.

Jump cues are allowed. The only requirement is it must be at least 42".

There are no fouls on push shots. Players may shoot through balls with that being no foul.

Where not mentioned herein, the general rules of pocket billiards shall apply.

Fouls would result in ball in hand.

Additional rules would be IF a player makes a ball on a called "safe" or misses the called shot yet flukes a ball the points go to his opponent. This is to assure that each rack always results in 15 points being scored by the players (thus after 4 total racks played the combined score of the two players would be 60 total points every time).

The benefit of a game like this is it is "point" based. AKA people score points, not game wins. This allows for alot more "stats" and talk about "high runs" and the like which is a important asspect of spectator sports. People who run 15 or 30 points in a row in this game would be doing something very difficult and those types of feats would be discussed.

A score in this game at the end would be 60-38 or the like. People could discuss how many innings the winning player took to get to 60 points, the average points per an inning for different players in certain years or competitions they won.

The game would be played on the normal 9-foot tables 9 and 10-ball are played on at present with pockets cut to the same standards we see today.

Much of the difficulty of the game would result from the rotation aspect of the game and the full rack of balls. The break being wild would promote powerful breaks to make as many balls as possible off the break and keep long runs going and control of the table.

A game like this were it to become a main competition game at the pro level would bring billiards alot closer to the difficulty level and thus respect of snooker and 3-cushion, which atm negatively affects billiards to a degree that is underestimated by most people.

The main difficulty with this game would be introducing it to the public and the players and creating a working knowledge of the rules in both the spectators and the competitors of the game. I have tested the game, it "plays" very well but the rules being new and quite complex do keep you thinking, this would likely go away as the game is played more and more and the rules become second nature.

In a lot of ways this game is kind of a merging of rotation and straight pool, Rotational Straight Pool perhaps...

 

[Luxury]

I like watching a game where all misses is a foul. No safeties. And instead of ball in hand you are in the kitchen. I saw a match like that and watching the pros go for all bank shots was cool.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Great idea for a game, and I've already had two tournaments at my room (Danny K's) of Rotation Continuous. The problem is that not enough regular pool players are willing to try something that has such a degree of difficulty.

Where my rules are a little different is that the incoming player has cbih on each inning. This prevents a player getting hooked and bailing out by a pushout, and forces him or her to come with sometimes a spectacular shot which is also more fun to watch.

The pros that played it loved it, but the amateurs preferred the shorter games. I may try another larger tournament with more added money.
I agree, it's a game that can unify all games. It has a little of everything, but just too tough for most players.

We played to 100 points and each game took about 90 minutes.

 

[Celtic]

Interesting to see someone has done something similar. I would still go with not giving ball in hand to the incomming player on each inning simply because I feel a good safety battle can sometimes be one of the more interesting parts of a match, especially if it took place late in a match of this game with a very close score.

I expected the pro's might find the game interesting, I think the amature players would enjoy the game as spectators and in time enjoy playing the game against their own peers but a game like this really removes alot of the chance for a amature to have a prayer against a pro. Thats one of the things I like about the game, I am guessing that even with two pro's in a reasonable length race to 90 points or so the better of the two pro's will be a fairly strong favorite. This game could really finally make the Tiger or Federer of the pool world finally able to put themselves at the top of the field and dominate the scene, which I dont think it possible in 9 or 10 ball and it hurts the sport not allowing those people to rise to the top and become the recognized #1 player.

 

[madfox]

Grady rules looks like WPA 10 Ball ones

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Ball in hand really brings out the offensive part of the game. You'll see two rail kick billiards, masse combinations and all kinds of interesting shots that are never played because of missed position, or an unlucky leave.

It's a little like Tiger Woods being able to "play safe" after hitting into a sand trap. Instead, he suffers the consequences of his own mistakes, and is forced to make an incredible shot to make par.

 

[Celtic]

It's a little like Tiger Woods being able to "play safe" after hitting into a sand trap. Instead, he suffers the consequences of his own mistakes, and is forced to make an incredible shot to make par.

True, but Tiger does get to lay up if he is in a fairway bunker on a par 5 hole, an island green, and 280 out.

I understand the offense would be exciting, but I think it takes away all of the strategy from the game and simply makes it a brainless shootout. Part of what I like about pool is that intelligence can come into play in a match, in all offense pool that is minimalized. Compare 1-pocket to 9-ball for instance. One is a thinkers game, one is a shooters game. I want a game that gives a chance for the shooter and/or the thinker both to use their strong suits and have a chance of winning.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

You make a good point about safeties, but even if Tiger has to lay up he is still penalized for his error. What the total offense does is take the safeties away and add a dimension to the offensive game, which has never really been totally tested in pool.

I think everyone would be surprised to see how great the shots would become, when a pro has to try and not only hit the ball, but make the shot.

I introduced this about a year ago here, and I have a copywrite on the game now.

Last tournament we had Max Eberle won, Oscar D got second and Jose Parica third. Jose's run of 49 was highest in the event. They all raved about the game, and wrote comments that were printed in AZBilliards, Inside Pool Mag and Billiards Digest. Jose and Max especially would like this to be the major game played in tournaments.

 

[Celtic]

Last tournament we had Max Eberle won, Oscar D got second and Jose Parica third. Jose's run of 49 was highest in the event. They all raved about the game, and wrote comments that were printed in AZBilliards, Inside Pool Mag and Billiards Digest. Jose and Max especially would like this to be the major game played in tournaments.

Either way, if you are getting players like that and you want the game to take off and start to be played in tournaments then the BEST thing you could do it to videotape the matches between players like that and post links on this forum. Stream live matches of the game even so that people here can watch the pro's like that playing the game so that they start seeing it in action, start learning the rules and see the way the game works.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Great idea, Celtic. I'll do it next time I have a tournament. To get the pros interested I'm going to have to add about 20 grand, get sponsors and have it at a local hotel. I don't really have enough space to have a large event at my place.

 

[jsp]

I think a great game to play would be a 15 ball rotation game where each ball is worth 1 point.

I like it.

Though, following the break I foresee a lot of safety play, especially while balls are still congested. This won't be very desirable if you want to keep meaningful statistics, and especially if you want exciting high runs as in straight pool.

I proposed a new game a year or so back that I called "Last Ball" (see thread here). Here are the [incomplete] rules...

-Rack all 15 balls, completely randomly. (Yes, a game using all 15 balls!)

-The breaker breaks the balls and keeps control of the table regardless of whether he pockets a ball or not. (Totally gets rid of the luck factor of the break.)

-For the first five shots following the break, the players can pocket any ball to keep control of the table. It doesn't matter how many balls are made on the break, the first five shots following the break can be any ball on the table. (Rewards the bigger breaker.)

-After the five initial shots, the players must shoot the remaining balls in rotation. (The first five shots give you a chance to break up any difficult clusters.)

-For the remaining balls required to be shot in rotation, not hitting the lowest numbered ball first results in a foul. (Still incorporates the safety play of 9-ball.)

-All fouls result in BIH to the incoming player.

-Game is won when the last ball on the table is pocketed. (Hence, "Last Ball" is the name of the game.)

I think this a neat game that focuses on some of the skills needed to play good 8-ball, 14.1, and 9-ball all into one game. By keeping control of the table regardless of whether a ball is pocketed or not, you pretty much eliminate all the luck factor involved with the break. The first 5 shots require strategy and precise position play to break up any clusters that would inhibit running out. And as for the rotation part of the game, you still have all the great characteristics of 9-ball and 10-ball.

Here a skilled player can definitely run rack after rack since the first 5 shots following the break would be free to break out clusters, eliminate problem balls, and shape the table layout.

But for my game, you win by sinking the last ball (hence the name "Last Ball"). I think your idea of having each ball be worth a point would probably work out better for my game (though, I would then have to think up another name for the game, lol).

So to improve your game (and my game), I would suggest making the first 5 (somewhat arbitrary number) shots open following the break and continue running in rotation afterwards, having each ball count as a point. First to 150 win (very possible to go 150 and out following the break). I think it would be kick-ass game.

 

[Celtic]

I like it.

Though, following the break I foresee a lot of safety play, especially while balls are still congested. This won't be very desirable if you want to keep meaningful statistics, and especially if you want exciting high runs as in straight pool.

Given that balls are wild off the break and the successful breaking percentage of pro's on a 9-foot breaking 15 balls the power break would be used and the spreads on the table would likely be open most of the time.

It's definately not a game suited to a bar box.

You are not going to see runs similar to straight pool, a run of 35-40 points in this game would be akin to running 100+ I would imagine. If a person was to run a 90 and out in a pro event match that would require running 6 consecutive racks of 15 ball rotation.

There would be big runs, they would be relative though. It is actually a benefit that the game would not have the ability to lock down a player in their seat the way Straight pool allowed, the difficulty of putting together long runs makes them more impressive and gives both players more chances at the table allowing the best of the two enough chances to let his higher level of skill effect the outcome of the match.

 

[rbpwrd240]

15 balls and all offense with a point system per ball, well sounds like 6 pocket.

www.6pocketleague.com

Good luck

Alex

 

[Shaft]

Sounds like my kind of game, and I am not pro speed.

It needs a name.

Summit pool?
Ultimate pool?
Rotated straight defense?
Rotated straight offense?

 

[gulfportdoc]

Fouls would result in ball in hand.

Additional rules would be IF a player makes a ball on a called "safe" or misses the called shot yet flukes a ball the points go to his opponent. This is to assure that each rack always results in 15 points being scored by the players (thus after 4 total racks played the combined score of the two players would be 60 total points every time).

This is a great game you've come up with, Celtic. I'll have to try it out. It's a good combination of rotation games and straight pool.

In your above example, I'd say the ball should spot, unless you're playing on a coin table. Also, BIH always seemed too severe a penalty. It might be a good alternative to give CB in the kitchen-- but making sure that the next ball in rotation is shootable (by spotting it if necessary).

As a name, I'd go with "15 ball".

I'll be thinking it through some more, but you've got a real winner here!

Doc

 

[Celtic]

In your above example, I'd say the ball should spot, unless you're playing on a coin table.

The two main reasons I did it like that was A) league play were the game to get big might be something to do and as such on a coin op table where a win is simply 8 points the ball going down does not fubar the game and B) when you get spotting balls in a game like this the table often gets more cluttered. I play 1-pocket can cannot stand when you get a row of 3 or 4 balls coming down off the spot.

Ball in the kitchen rules bug me abit because luck comes into play with where the opbject ball happens to be on a scratch, the kitchen might be perfect shape for one foul and then on the next foul for the other guy he might have no shot from the kitchen. In reality a safety could be played on a foul by pushing a ball to the bottom rail or behind blockers so that there is no shot from the kitchen and I want to avoid that kind of play (which I would fully take advantage of myself under those types of rules).