My Thread… Regarding The Truth about so called ‘Objective Aiming Systems’ such as CTE

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Visual-spatial intelligence: includes your ability to visualize, remember images and details, and an awareness of your surroundings


Visual-Spatial Intelligence

Leonardo Da Vinci and I. M. Pei are famous people with high visual-spatial, or visual, intelligence. In other words, they possess the ability to visualize the world accurately, modify their surroundings based upon their perceptions, and recreate the aspects of their visual experiences. People with high visual-spatial intelligence are good at remembering images, faces, and fine details. They are able to visualize objects from different angles.

People with high visual-spacial intelligence also have good spacial judgement & reasoning. that is they are able to accurately judge the distance between themselves & an object, how far the object is to the right, etc.

They are skilled at using their ability to visualize & their spacial judgement to complete tasks & projects that include design, judgement & creativity. For this reason they make good painters, artists, architects, engineers, & designer.

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It seems that perhaps Stan is somewhat mis-applying this phrase as well & using it in an improper inference.

It is more of one's ability or aptitude in certain areas rather than any real 'intelligence'.

It seems that Stan is applying it correctly. Visual intelligence as applied to cte concerns ones ability to learn the correct relationship of the ctel and reference line. It becomes a skill and allows us to objectively do things and see things over and over.
There is no subconscious adjustments as we are well aware of the proper image of those lines.
 
I view visual intelligence more as to seeing the correct relationship of the ctel and reference line. To me they are both defined and used objectively, not by feel.
I know they seem like that to you, but that doesn't stand up to logic and the meaning of "objectively". I agree the CTE line and reference line are defined objectively, but how to get to the aim line from them is never defined clearly, so there's no evidence that using them is done objectively.

pj
chgo
 
Again, with all due respect, Sir, your offer was made at a time when I was intrigued by the description of 'an objective aiming system' & not long after I ruptured a disc in my back & travel was completely out of the question. I've opted not to have surgery & hence have been& am living in an amount of somewhat ongoing reoccurring discomfort & have had & still have no inclination to travel unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

Since the time of your offer, I came to realize that Your CTE was not an objective aiming system, but... I was waiting for your 2nd. DVD installment of Pro1 as it was supposed to make things more clear, etc. In the rather short interim, I saw your 5 shots YouTube Video on 'Perception' & realized that there would not be anything forthcoming on the 2nd. DVD that would show or indicate 'an objective aiming system'.

So... you & others are correct when you say that I am no longer interested in learning CTE, I am not... & for that reason.

What I am interested in is showing that it is not such so that perhaps some will not waste their time in pursuit of what is not there & does not exist.

I am rather amazed that I lost my senses for a brief time & even considered that there might be such an aiming system or method. I am very thankful that that time of senselessness regarding the subject was rather short & hence I did not waste much time considering it as an option as some others apparently have.

All this said, I am NOT saying that Your CTE is NOT a good 'aiming' method. It may very well be... but NOT because it is 'an objective aiming method'.

Thank You for the opportunity to set the record straight, so to speak.

Also, you should realize that IF you could give me the type of explanation of which I seek, that I would probably be you most significant convert & probably become your most significant ally & would certainly promote Your CTE.

The fact that do not provide such to me is rather telling, I think.

BUT... it is obvious that no such 'explanation' will be forthcoming just as I predicted way back when.

Best Wishes & You Have a Great Weekend.

Yet you offer no PROOF that its not objective.
You go so far as to say it has holes but never ever once described or diagrammed a hole.
 
What does everyone get from you?

A DEBATER THAT DOES KNOW HIS SUBJECT MATTER AND IS UNWILLING TO BECOME EDUCATED WITH THE TOPIC. And that is exactly what I expect from you and that will never change......that is who you are.....a word man.

My book will be out when it is out.....It is a huge project! Writing, table work, writing, table work....redoing and redoing.....scores and scores of illustrations and pictures.....the best I can say is 2016..

Stan Shuffett

Again, with all due respect.

Words are what the vast majority use to communicate. They are basically all that we have for the most part.

Is your book going to be wordless?

Best Wishes & Have a Great Weekend.

PS. I respect the considerable efforts that you have put forth & the considerable time that you have invested. It is just obvious to me that you have formed an incorrect 'conclusion' in reference to an applicable description of what the method is & unfortunately, perhaps depending from what perspective one is looking, that that description is so intriguing & can be so enticing that it has become so volatile.
 
CTE's "visual intelligence" is described by CTE users (including Stan) as the ability to recognize the correct final shot alignment, learned by practice and experience. How is that different from how anybody else recognizes the final shot alignment? It's exactly how I do it - by "feel".

Undefined terms like "visual intelligence", "acquire the visual", "3D perception", etc. are the signposts that tell us we've reached the end of the "objective instructions" road - from there on it's every player for himself, using his own "visual intelligence" gained from lots of practice.

Since nobody can describe it any more clearly, why should we believe "visual intelligence" isn't just another term for "by feel"?

pj
chgo

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:
 
I know they seem like that to you, but that doesn't stand up to logic and the meaning of "objectively". I agree the CTE line and reference line are defined objectively, but how to get to the aim line from them is never defined clearly, so there's no evidence that using them is done objectively.

pj
chgo

And there is no evidence that it is not done objectively.
Also Stan defines how to get to the aim line very clearly, you just refuse to accept it.
 
A

PS. I respect the considerable efforts that you have put forth & the considerable time that you have invested. It is just obvious to me that you have formed an incorrect 'conclusion' in reference to an applicable description of what the method is & unfortunately, perhaps depending from what perspective one is looking, that that description is so intriguing & can be so enticing that it has become so volatile.

Maybe its the people that haven't learned CTE that make it so volatile.
 
Any links to this Tony the Tiger's posts? Any chance of the "holes" being diagrammed?

Not by me, John. I'm a rather tech 'idiot'.

But... you should be able to do what Poolplaya9 suggested in the quote of him that I posted earlier.

Then we'd have a specific number of objectively derived shot angles of which to compare regarding the number required to actually play the game.

Best Wishes.

PS When you mentioned leasing space to do videos, I hope you do not intend video as a form of a so called proof regarding objectivity vs subjectivity.

Video can not be legitimately used as any sort of proof for the realm of abstract... I eve struggle for the proper word to call them, shall we say...attributes.
 
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Really, that's what you come up with? No logic or critical thinking at all? I have given definitions of what visual intelligence means several times, as have others on here. But, I guess you wouldn't know that because you are too busy trying to nitpick instead of actually learn something or help others on here.

For you to actually type out the definition as given by one guy, and then state that Stan doesn't use it correctly, shows that you don't even understand what the guy you quoted even said. Visual intelligence, as well as other intelligence's, can be learned. Something you might want to take the time to try.

I guess you actually are what that management member refer to you as.

I guess I will just have to accept that & admit it.

Best Wishes.
 
You can pray for me all you want, Thanks.

As to Poolplaya9, if you or he understood CTE then you would know how ridiculous this statement is.
We look at the same thing everytime, so if one shot is defined then they all are.

I'm sorry, but if you are not an alter ego for Neil then you're another in the same boat.

Best Wishes.
 
This just repeats the same old phrases: "the visuals" and "the pivot" do it.


You're not describing knowledge; you're describing confidence. I'm confident when I aim too.


It's an objective "place", but where are the objective instructions that tell us how to recognize it? That's what would define an objective system.


The "objective points" are guidelines, as you yourself say above. One doesn't "finetune by objective guidelines"; one fine tunes to get from objective guidelines to the final aim line.


Visual intelligence = "I know it when I see it" = aiming by feel. You haven't said anything that means anything different.

pj
chgo

Pat, I understand that you are desperately trying to save face here, and not admit that you have been wrong for years. It's not working to well for you.

In your first statement you say that it's the same old thing. Of course it is, do you want us to change the directions each time we say something about it? Your statement comes across as if it is a bad thing that we keep saying the same things. Quite the opposite is true. It shows that we all are on the same page and keep saying the same thing.

Then you state that it is not knowledge, but confidence. I disagree with your conclusion. What is confidence, but knowledge that one is doing something correctly? How can one know that one is doing something correctly without any knowledge of it?

While knowledge and confidence are not the same, they are closely related. But, where knowledge is facts, confidence can be falsely attained. One can have a false confidence that there "feel" put them on the correct shot line, where it really didn't because there were no guidelines to actually get them there.

The knowledge comes into play with having the visual intelligence to stand in the correct place to attain the visuals, then using the A,B, or C reference line in accord with the CTE line to obtain the visuals, then making the half tip pivot. VI+V+P=SL (visual intelligence plus visuals plus pivot equals shotline)

You then state that it is not objective, even though you are in an objective place, because the system does not tell you each step to get into that place. But yet, it does. Just not in the way you were expecting. The system does say you need visual intelligence. As Rick pointed out but didn't understand, that means spatial awareness. In this case, knowing where to stand to be on the rough shot line. So, it is objective. It's just that the system doesn't go through each and every step to learn how to obtain that spatial awareness. Nor should it. That would be a course on fundamentals, not aiming.

You then state that one doesn't fine tune by objective guidelines. In most all other systems, that would be a true statement. However, with this system, that is not a true statement. That is a big part of the problem with some trying to understand and use this system. They continually want to bring in other ways of obtaining the objective into the system which only corrupts the system and causes it to fail.

With CTE there is no finetuning by feel. One's finetuning is done by acquiring the proper objective visuals, and then completing the objective pivot. That is all. That procedure in and of itself will put on on the shot line finetuned to a slight overcut which CIT will change to a center pocket shot line.

As to your last part, no, visual intelligence does not mean aiming by feel. As stated earlier, your visual intelligence puts you into an objective place from where one then begins his aiming.
 
Let's just start here- you say it has been requested numerous times by Tony the Tiger. That means by the way your statement is worded, that he has asked us numerous times.

That would mean that he is a poster here. Numerous times, you have been asked just who he is. Each time, you totally ignore the question. Could it be that you ignore it because he is fictitious? In the past, you have stated that he is just some guy that plays real well in your local room and that he does not post on here. And that he tried CTE for a full year, and stated that it does work, but has holes in it.

Other times you have stated that he is what you think is a good player, but you can't remember his posting name on here. But, you do remember him stating that CTE does not work and has holes in it.

If I recall correctly, you have also stated that he says it is not objective. As if he is some sort of authority on the subject.

So, in the guise of being accurate, precise, qualifying statements, being logical, rational, ect., Tell us just who this fictitious person you keep referring to as some authority actually is.

Again...

You are mixing up a bunch of hog wash & making all kinds of inaccurate & false statements.

What part of I am not inclined to try to have a logical discussion with the likes of the term used by that management member do you NOT get?

Best Wishes.

PS The Tony Guy, if I remember correctly is a Real Estate Agent I think in Fla. or Tx. I do NOT know him & have never met him. He is either a member of AZB or he is someone that a member told the story about. His story came from right here on AZB,
 
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This just repeats the same old phrases: "the visuals" and "the pivot" do it.


You're not describing knowledge; you're describing confidence. I'm confident when I aim too.


It's an objective "place", but where are the objective instructions that tell us how to recognize it? That's what would define an objective system.


The "objective points" are guidelines, as you yourself say above. One doesn't "finetune by objective guidelines"; one fine tunes to get from objective guidelines to the final aim line.


Visual intelligence = "I know it when I see it" = aiming by feel. You haven't said anything that means anything different.

pj
chgo

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:
 
Yeah, nothing that follows this will be worth reading. Never mind.

pj
chgo

Then you are in the same boat as Rick. Only wanting to nitpick and not learn. I understand it from Rick, not from you. You are above that. Or, at least, I like to think you are. You know my starting statement is correct, you just can't handle the truth of it. Really, Pat, how much have you actually taken what what said, and applied it to the table in an attempt to understand it? The fact that you haven't, is what makes the statement correct. You aren't really interested in finding out the how and whys as you are in proving that you have been correct all along. There is no leeway in your thinking about it anymore.
 
Again...

You are mixing up a bunch of hog wash & making all kinds of inaccurate & false statements.

What part of I am not inclined to try to have a logical discussion with the likes of the term used by that management member do you NOT get?

Best Wishes.

PS The Tony Guy, if I remember correctly is a Real Estate Agent I think in Fla. or Tx. I do NOT know him & have never met him. He is either a member of AZB or he is someone that a member told the story about. His story came from right here on AZB,

I do agree that it is hogwash, but it is your statements, not mine. Critical thinking, Rick, critical thinking....try it some time.;)
 
I guess you actually are what that management member refer to you as.

I guess I will just have to accept that & admit it.

Best Wishes.

Again, nothing of any substance from you, just name calling. You are even too lazy to come up with your own names, but have to borrow names from what some other person called me.
 
It seems that Stan is applying it correctly. Visual intelligence as applied to cte concerns ones ability to learn the correct relationship of the ctel and reference line. It becomes a skill and allows us to objectively do things and see things over and over.
There is no subconscious adjustments as we are well aware of the proper image of those lines.

You state nothing here but your opinion & you state it as fact as it applies to CTE.

I suggest that go back & read that article.

It is a psychological 'theory' from 1968 & NOT in the proven sense of the word. There were a lot of hallucinatory drugs being done during that time.

It is suggesting that one's innate intelligence, you know like IQ, is not singular but can be broken down into, for at the time of his 'theory', 8 individual types.

It has more to do with aptitude than with anything that you are saying here about one learning to have it or acquiring it. That would actually be subjective learning.

If anything, it has more to do with FEEL as it would apply to playing pool.

It rather amazes me the lengths of what some of you will put forth.

As I've suggested, I think Poolplaya9 hit the proverbial nail squarely & perfectly on the head with a crushing hammer.

Best Wishes.
 
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