National cue age?
- Thread starter outrider1
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IIRC that logo was used on the US made cues. More: http://www.billiardsforum.com/pool-cue-identification/pool-cue-logo-with-letter-n-in-a-red-circle
This listing has the same logo and a Taiwan label.
Vintage National Pool Cue 1970s. 57.5” 19 OZ with Case.Appears NOS! | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage National Pool Cue 1970s. 57.5” 19 OZ with Case.Appears NOS! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
outrider1
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Hi Fatboy, that was a link someone sent me about National cues,here's a picture of mine,made in Chicago USA.
They made these in the late '60's to 1970. Many future makers worked there who went on to become famous. The Co is mentioned in the 3rd Blue Book of cues,as I recall
Attachments
Apparently some Nat's with that logo were made in Taiwan.
outrider1
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You are correct on the ebay cue,from Taiwan. But the National logo is higher above the sticker, it's much lower on mine. Also the shaft is flat faced,whereas my old cue has 2 piloted shafts.And both are original to the butt.This listing has the same logo and a Taiwan label.
Vintage National Pool Cue 1970s. 57.5” 19 OZ with Case.Appears NOS! | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage National Pool Cue 1970s. 57.5” 19 OZ with Case.Appears NOS! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!www.ebay.com
If I recall correctly, the National cues that were made in the US will be very similar to those made by Ricco Cervantes under the name Gandy.
If you were to ignore the logo, your cue has all the hallmarks of a Taiwanese cue. The USA made Nationals will be on par with a 60’s Viking, Mali or Palmer. The finish on the 60’s stuff that I have had pass through my hands is totally different from the mass produced 70’s stuff.
If you were to ignore the logo, your cue has all the hallmarks of a Taiwanese cue. The USA made Nationals will be on par with a 60’s Viking, Mali or Palmer. The finish on the 60’s stuff that I have had pass through my hands is totally different from the mass produced 70’s stuff.
outrider1
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That's cool However, Gordy Hart didn't start the Viking company until the '70's. After he worked with the National Chalk Co,in Chicago, USA. I have older Adam cues,my National cue is on par with them in quality and hit. No better no worse. I got my information on National cues from the Blue Book of Cues,3rd edition. Thanks for the reply.
if I recall, Gandy was at National from 71-73, Helmstetter, Meucci and Hart ca. 68-69 at National. I believe Huebler was there as well.
I’m not trying to say your cue isn’t built well or plays bad. I’ve have played with great playing $20 Kmart cues. What I’m getting at is your cue does not look to be made in the US.
The base of the points look more like what you would see on an Adam cue or something from the Kao-Kao factory. The inlay in the mittered box is classic Taiwanese. The white rings around the checked rings looks to be plastic. Old National cues are also known for an aluminum insert in the shaft.
If you cross reference Gandy and National in Google, you will find more discussion and photos comparing the two both on AZ and the billiard forum.
I don’t know how long you have been into custom cues, I only have 15 years under my belt. Luckily there was a premier shop locally that had roughly 30 different cue builders in their inventory, the owner had 30 years in the business and he was always generous with knowledge.
It took me a few years to recognize specific details that help identify an import vs domestic made cues.
Years ago on AZ there were a few older guys that would post almost instantly on cue ID threads, though the atmosphere on AZ has changed and I believe those gentlemen either passed on or passed on AZ.
I’m not trying to say your cue isn’t built well or plays bad. I’ve have played with great playing $20 Kmart cues. What I’m getting at is your cue does not look to be made in the US.
The base of the points look more like what you would see on an Adam cue or something from the Kao-Kao factory. The inlay in the mittered box is classic Taiwanese. The white rings around the checked rings looks to be plastic. Old National cues are also known for an aluminum insert in the shaft.
If you cross reference Gandy and National in Google, you will find more discussion and photos comparing the two both on AZ and the billiard forum.
I don’t know how long you have been into custom cues, I only have 15 years under my belt. Luckily there was a premier shop locally that had roughly 30 different cue builders in their inventory, the owner had 30 years in the business and he was always generous with knowledge.
It took me a few years to recognize specific details that help identify an import vs domestic made cues.
Years ago on AZ there were a few older guys that would post almost instantly on cue ID threads, though the atmosphere on AZ has changed and I believe those gentlemen either passed on or passed on AZ.
outrider1
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I agree the atmosphere has changed on here. garcazar posted a link, from www.billiards.com,"Pool Cue Logo With Letter N in a Red Circle". There's much information on there about NCC. Idk if Paul H worked there,I knew him and he never mentioned it. I'm of the opinion it's Chicago made because the points are even,their splices are smooth and level. The diamonds are even, and the stitchwork is uniform and not protruding like some more expensive cues I've had.And it rolls true.If not for the hack job of someone refinishing it, I would be happy to have it for a daily cue. The reason I ask for information about the cue? I'm wondering if it's worth the cost of getting it refinished. Again, thanks for spending time with me on this subject.
I'm back. I am not sure if I am one of those older guys. LOL!
Respectfully, to those who feel otherwise, this is definitely not US made by National or Viking or other, and is most likely an example of a National branded China/Taiwan made, probably Kao-Kao cue.
There is a lot of misinformation about these and other branded cues. I am seeing more of it now that I am looking again. There is a big fat area of darkness and confusion from about 1965 to about 1990, and even after, regarding cues like this. The Palmer stuff got straightened out years ago.
In general, some were Adam, some were Kao-Kao, some were Viking, and for some of them, there are the "originals". There are some other branded cues made by Joss, Mali, and others as well. There is another I will not mention that many claim to be a US maker by name, and they are definitely Kao-Kao cues. So as not to trash a name and create arguments, I am waiting to dig up proof. That means I need to dig into many import/export records. trademarks, and registered corporations. Been there, done that, will have to do it again for this one.
After a 5 year hiatus, I am back on collecting Gandy/National cues. I have seen that Bob Meucci did say there were original cues inscribed across the butt cap with "National". I believe him. There is just one problem. He did not mean these. He could not have. If he did I would be astounded. If any book or resource says these are the original US made cues, they are wrong. Mistakes are made, including in well regarded resources.
The versions of these cues that were made by Viking were quite nice. Viking made branded cues for a number of companies. Sadly, the records were lost according to Viking. Last I remember, a member here that works for Viking was taking up the cause of looking for some of that history. Apparently, they were the one responsible for the Viking archive we see online.
Having personally owned and examined a number of examples, including these cues, and this exact model, I am confident in my opinion. I have the advantage of being interested in "cheap cues" and their history because I got into the Cobra and Mizerak cues and the Harold Miller deal Mizerak made. I have spoken to people involved in that effort. Sadly, one of them I contacted shortly after he threw away all the ring binders and boxes of cue brochures and records, that was a cousin of Harold Miller involved in the business. He owned several cue brands himself later on. Most of the people involved in these ventures are not mainstream US billiards business people, and certainly not cue makers.
The reason some very knowledgeable cue people have trouble identifying cues such as this is because they never bothered much with "cheap cues". Unless they were in touch with the sale or distribution of them, they really probably don't know much about them.
The reason I am going to be emphatic is because my own posts and pictures have been misused. If you Google Cobra cue, Mizerak Cue, or Dove cue, and click on pictures you find my pictures immediately, mixed in with other stuff.
I have to find the posts and web sites again, but there is similar misinformation on Butera cues and others. These are mostly here and on Billiardforum. I stay away from Facebook but found out from a guy that is on Facebook about cues that this is going on.
I am still after the better "pro" versions of the Cobra and Mizerak cues, but I am seeing the cheap "K-Mart" versions sell for silly money and was told that my posts had something to do with driving those prices up. I actually had a guy try to sell me a cue, that needed refinished, that was one of those cheap cues, insisting Harold Miller made it and that he had bought it from a guy that knew him, yadda yadda yadda. And he sent me one of my own pictures of my own cue in the discussion about his cue. I could tell he wasn't lying, he believed what he was telling me.
I was also told by an "expert" who really does know a lot, that one of my cues isn't what I say it is. He was looking at versions made by Adam. He has the old catalog. Mine isn't in it, so he said mine is made in China. But my cue is a Viking made cue. If anybody finds the Butera catalog of Viking made cues, I want it. But it think it probably will not say Viking on it. We will see if one turns up.
Viking made Murrey cues too. And they are not marked Viking or Murrey. They are so similar to some Viking models that it can be difficult to tell, so they are almost always simply identified as Viking cues.
I just now chose this post to get back into this. I have dabbled for days, reading, searching, seeing what is going on, mostly to get my Gandy/National collection back on track. Whenever I see a cue ID I can untangle, no matter how old, I am going to do that. I may not be a whiz at Buschkas, Szams, and Spains, but this I can do.
Hint, you can't always tell by the bumper, like this one has a bumper that resembles an old Viking bumper. Also, contrary to popular belief, the points and inlays can be even on China made cues, and the fit and finish can be nice. Adam themselves has factories in China. But these days usually I can tell from basic pictures right away, with a high degree of certainty, what it isn't #1, and also with slightly less certainty what it is #2.
What can be even more frustrating is an original owner with false beliefs about a cue, that thinks he knows, and just wants a value estimate. I tend to stay away from the value issue.
So, to answer the OP:
If the cue is a treasure to you, it could be worth a million to you, so it would be worth refinishing. Unless that is true, the cost of refinishing the cue would far exceed the value of the cue.
By the way, I found this post by Google, not by searching AZB.
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How "early" do you mean?
This was posted on Billiardsforum.
If you mean this, it was made in Taiwan.