drivermaker
Banned
thecyclone@btin said:
The answer lies within this thread....also try ebay
Need Help...Radar Gun...
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The answer lies within this thread....also try ebay
drivermaker
Banned
nipponbilliards said:
So...which one have you decided to invest in...the Jugs or another less expensive model?
drivermaker said:
I am seriously considering the models which can read the decimals. Although they are more expensive, they serve to read the subtle differences when reading a relatively low velocity such as the break velocity. 26mph and 26.4mph may not mean much to most people, but it is an indication of an advantage when you are looking to find out, for instance, the difference the weight of the breaker can make to your break. This is just one of the many applications in which the radar gun can be useful.
I am still trying to learn all the details about where to point the gun at and how to get the most consistent and accurate reading. I would like to allow the player to break from any position along or behind the head string. I am doing this because this can help the player to find a point on the table whereas the player can obtain the highest break velocity. The difference may only be .2 mph--yet it is still a significant difference considering that it can make the difference between a ball hanging in front of the pocket and a ball dropping in the pocket.
Most players like to see how many balls fall when trying out a break cue. This method is very misleading because luck plays a hugh factor in the outcome. Some players listen to the sound of the break--when they hear a loud noise, they think they are having a powerful break--again, it is not scientific. As a matter of fact, a lot of noise represents a lot of energy lost in the form of sound waves--does it offer a guarantee of higher break velocity is what I like to know.
Since kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times the square of velocity, the break velocity is the key factor to obtain maximum energy transferred to the cue ball. My idea is to find out scientifically how such a maximum energy transfer could be possible for each player who participates in my experiment. I am also interested in learning the relationships between shaft taper, tip hardness, balance, and joint configuration versus break velocity.
I like to ask the following questions and hopefully, obtain my answers with the help of a radar gun.
1. Does a stiff taper offer higher break velocity?
2. Does a phenolic tip offer higher break velocity? If so, how much?
3. What is the optium weight for maximum break velocity for each player?
4. Does the joint make a difference?
5. Will a jump/break cue break less solid than a full breaking cue because of the difference in balance and the presence of an extra quick release joint?
6. Will a player break better from a certain point on the table consistently? If so, where is it? And how much higher is the increase in velocity?
This is not intended to be a contest on who breaks the fastest, this expeiment is intended to help the players to learn more about their games and their equipment; in other words, to know more about themselves--it is meant to offer the players a solid proof that what they are using/buying is really the best equipment for the job, and where they are breaking from and how they are breaking is really the best way to go--based on scientific data, rather than outcomes based on luck or personal impression based on noise level.
When one knows these things with certainty, one can always break with the highest breaking velocity within one's capacity.
Thank you very much for all your assistance.
PS: How many of you are going to the BCA in May? Drivermaker, are you going to be there?
Richard
drivermaker
Banned
nipponbilliards said:
Interesting questions and the answers will be also, if break speed in itself will divulge them. Nay...I won't be going.
If you are implying that the stick's velocity is the key factor in obtaining maximum kinetic energy ("KE"), then you are a little off target. Since there are two variables, you can change either one to obtain more KE. As noted below, a heavy cue stick travelling slower can have the same KE as a lighter stick travelling faster...nipponbilliards said:
Maximum energy transferred to the cue ball does not equate to maximum energy imparted to the rack. Any off center hit will cause angular velocity, which in turn results in less 'speed'. Further, angled cue sticks cause energy to be transferred to the slate, again resulting in less 'speed'. There are other considerations as well, such as the tip material (as you mentioned below).
What about shaft diameter, cue weight, vertical angle, and break location (breaking head on is a shorter distance than from the rail)?nipponbilliards said:
Just some comments:
There are two schools of thought regarding break cues: heavy cues and light ones. A heavy cue stick travelling slower can result in as much force as a lighter cue stick travelling faster. However, the current trend is to use a cue stick closer to the weight of your playing cue, or perhaps a hair lighter...
1. Does a stiff taper offer higher break velocity?
How would you verify this? If you change the taper on a cue, you would change the weight, resulting in different measurements...
2. Does a phenolic tip offer higher break velocity? If so, how much?A phenolic tip will absorb less of the impact (as compared to a softer tip). This in turn will result in more energy going somewhere. It could result in more velocity, or a jumping cue ball, or more spin on the cue ball, etc. [I did an experiment on this, will post results below.]
3. What is the optium weight for maximum break velocity for each player?As above, a player may have two cues that result in exactly the same velocity, one heavy and one light. The player will most likely be able to accelerate a lighter cue more than the heavy one over the course of the forward swing, but they might both result in the same KE.
4. Does the joint make a difference?Look up the speed of vibrations through wood. The cue tip might be in contact with the cue ball for .001 sec. The longitudinal (compression) waves will most likely not make it through the joint and back in time for the joint to make a difference in this short time.
5. Will a jump/break cue break less solid than a full breaking cue because of the difference in balance and the presence of an extra quick release joint?Mine did.
6. Will a player break better from a certain point on the table consistently? If so, where is it? And how much higher is the increase in velocity?There have been statistical studies showing that breaking from the rail increases balls made on the break. I don't believe that break speed was a consideration in that study. I don't think that breaking from one place on the table affects velocity. A player has a maximum break speed no matter where they align. (i.e., if Hillbilly Bryant can break 35 MPH from the center spot, he can break 35 MPH from the rail...)
I think that you would need a Iron Willy type of machine and a bunch of different sticks for any reliability. Simply measuring breaks of different people will yield very little helpful information. Although it will provide a nice statistical analysis of break speeds...nipponbilliards said:
-td
I have a number of cues that I've used for breaking over the years. So
one day I decided to do a little experiment with a few of them. I grabbed the following cues:
J&J jump break with phenolic tip (quick release)
Bob Frey - shaft (1) with phenolic tip (5/16 x 14 piloted joint - not J/B)
Bob Frey (same) - shaft (2) with Moori Medium
Big Log - 20 oz house cue (Dufferin)
Small log - 18 oz house cue (Dufferin)
I ran to my home room and took out my radar gun and had my good buddy
time all my breaks. I did around 10 breaks for each stick, and kept
highly confidential and trade secret protected scientific data on the
back of a beverage napkin.
Speed: *all breaks counted, even if the cue ball went flying to Omaha*
For me, the best speed breaks came from the Frey with Phenolic tip.
I had around a 3-5 MPH slower breaks when using the J&J with phenolic tip. The other cues were just a bit under the J&J, but once or twice I was in the same range. This amounted to about a 15-20% increase in speed. [max with J&J was 22, max with Frey was 25, max with others was 21 (but only did that once); the averages had about the same ranges]
There was almost no difference between Frey with Moori and small log,
but the big log was 1-2 MPH slower. (I'm probably too weak to properly
wield the big log, lol). Overall: Frey with phenolic was fastest, then
J&J, then pick your poison.
-td
one day I decided to do a little experiment with a few of them. I grabbed the following cues:
J&J jump break with phenolic tip (quick release)
Bob Frey - shaft (1) with phenolic tip (5/16 x 14 piloted joint - not J/B)
Bob Frey (same) - shaft (2) with Moori Medium
Big Log - 20 oz house cue (Dufferin)
Small log - 18 oz house cue (Dufferin)
I ran to my home room and took out my radar gun and had my good buddy
time all my breaks. I did around 10 breaks for each stick, and kept
highly confidential and trade secret protected scientific data on the
back of a beverage napkin.
Speed: *all breaks counted, even if the cue ball went flying to Omaha*
For me, the best speed breaks came from the Frey with Phenolic tip.
I had around a 3-5 MPH slower breaks when using the J&J with phenolic tip. The other cues were just a bit under the J&J, but once or twice I was in the same range. This amounted to about a 15-20% increase in speed. [max with J&J was 22, max with Frey was 25, max with others was 21 (but only did that once); the averages had about the same ranges]
There was almost no difference between Frey with Moori and small log,
but the big log was 1-2 MPH slower. (I'm probably too weak to properly
wield the big log, lol). Overall: Frey with phenolic was fastest, then
J&J, then pick your poison.
-td
td873 said:
Yes, you are right. You can have an identical number. My point was made based on the fact that KE is proportional to the square of the velocity and directly proportional to the mass; therefore, a slight increse in velocity will have a bigger impact on KE than an equal increase in mass. Besides, the range of mass of a breaking cue is very narrow, most likely from 18 to 21 oz, while break velocity can go from less than15mph to over 30 mph. That is why I consider the velocity variable more crucial.
td873 said:
I really learn a lot from the points you made. Thank you. I am however not entirely sure if the angular velocity can decrease the linear velocity to a significant extend. Besides, I am interested in knowing what would result in the maximum velocity transferred to the cue ball for each player. I believe a player is used to breaking in a certain way and so the variations of the breaking angle and breaking spin might be quite consistent from cue to cue for that particular player. Having said that, it is possible that a different cue may drastically change the technique of the player, it is something I am very interested to find out. Do you think you break differently with different cue?
td873 said:
Yes, it is true that the above mentioned distance is the shortest. However, since body position is different for the breaker breaking from the center, is it possible that the breaker might not be able to generate as much acceleration from this position?
td873 said:
In my opinion, most players do not want to use a heavy breaking cue playing pool for long hours. If a lighter cue is preferred, I like to find out which weight is the best to achieve maximum breaking velocity for each player.
td873 said:
Good point. If I have two shafts with identical weight but different density, wouldn't they be useful in serving my purpose?
td873 said:
Yes, where did the energy go is the question I suppose. Did they dissipate mainly in the form of sound, or a vertical vector component which jumps the ball off the table, or more energy into breaking the balls?
td873 said:
If I let you try breaking with cues ranging from 17 to 22 oz, and show you the breaking velocity obtained from each cue, will you pick the cue with the weight which offers you the highest velocity? I think because the range of weight is so narrow, and because it is only linear propotional to KE, it is easier to obtain a maximum KE with an increase in velocity than an increse in weight.
If you look at the differential of KE versus mass and velocity respectively,
d KE / d mass = 1/2 velocity square provided velocity is a constant. i.e. d KE/ d mass is a constant.
d KE/ d velocity = mass times velocity provided mass is a constant. i.e. d KE/ d velocity is a linear equation dependent on velocity, which is a variable.
It tells me that a change in KE is constant versus a change in mass provided that velocity is a constant, i.e they are independent provided velocity is constant;
however, a change in KE versus a change in velocity is a linear equation provided that mass is a constant, i.e. they are dependent in a linear relationship even if the mass is constant.
In layman's term, let's assume that you can move the cue with the same velocity at 18, 19, or 20 oz, you get the same increase in energy going form 19oz to 20oz or from 18oz to 19oz. Whereas if you look at the increase in energy with a particular weight, you can see that the amount of increase of energy is dependent on the amount of increase of velocity and the velocity itself. It is not a constant.
That is why I stated that velocity is the key factor.
td873 said:
I am not too sure about that. For example, if the joint of the cue is lose, would that have any effect on the break? Now, if the joint is not tight enough, would that result in energy lost? Do you believe that some joints are tighter than others, if you do, do you think that it will affect the break?
td873 said:
I agree making balls off the break is not only dependent on break velocity. However, I am interested in finding out if there is indeed a relationship between breaking position and breaking velocity. I personally have a weaker break breaking from the center of the table--it may just be me--but I would like to help players to find out if there is a stronger side to their breaks due to body alignment, machanic or whatever it might be.
td873 said:
You are right. Your suggestions and comments have been very informative. I have been thinking about this for a long time but I have to say I have missed a lot of key ideas until I read your posts.
What do you think about the following scenerio?
You go to a booth during a trade show and there are a lot of breaking cues made by the same cue makers--some with leather tips, others with phenolic tips; some with pro taper, others with stiffer taper; some heavy, others light.
You are offered to try them all, and to compare them, plus you are also offered to compare them with your own breaking cue, based on the elements I stated.
The point of the experiment is not just to sell you a cue, but to let you find out what is best for *you*. The data from the radar gun are offered to you so you can make an informed decision as to whether you need another breaking cue, if you do, which one should you choose in terms of taper, tip, weight..etc
Richard<--just typed the longest post in his whole life...
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drivermaker
Banned
td873 said:
What were the weights of the Frey's and J&J? And do either of them have weight bolts that can be taken out and replaced with either heavier or lighter ones to go up and down the ladder to get different speed results, along with # of balls made, CB control, and rack spread?
Although the KE increase is linear as you suggest, it is more important to note the impact of this on the cue ball's speed, rather than the KE before impact. Accordingly, where you increase weight and keep velocity constant, the cue ball's speed increase will NOT be linear. Rather, it is based on the square root of the stick/ball ratio. Increasing stick weight increases this ratio, therefore, this ball speed plot cannot be linear.nipponbilliards said:
Again, increasing KE just before contact is not the critiacal issue. Solving the system after contact is. Using the same analysis as above, where you increase the velocity, and keep mass of the cue the same, the increase in cue ball speed will be LINEAR [and the cue ball will be about 1.732 MPH faster for each 1 MPH increase in stick speed (cue ball = 6oz, cue stick = 18oz here)]nipponbilliards said:
This ratio of increase in stick velocity only vs. increase in stick weight only is approximately 3:1.nipponbilliards said:
Grab your calculator and verify this since it is early, and I could have my math wrong: the increase in speed of the cue ball based on increasing the speed of the cue stick only (i.e., mass of cue stick stays the same, but speed of the stroke increases) is an increase of 1.732 MPH on the CUE BALL for every 1 MPH increase on the CUE STICK (using 18 oz and 6 oz).
The increase in speed of the cue ball based on increasing the weigh of the cue stick only (i.e., speed of the cue stick stays the same, but mass increases) is an increase of ~.55 MPH on the CUE BALL for every 1 oz increase on the CUE STICK. (This will vary based on the constant stick speed, but for average breakers, .55 is a close approximation).
With this in mind, increasing velocity (in 1 MPH increments) rather than weight (in 1 oz increments) is around a 3:1 improvement (rather than a difference based on the square of the velocity).
This will not affect the KE calculation before impact, and will only affect the system at contact. Any loss of energy between the stick and the cue ball will result in less velocity. A loose joint effectively lessens the mass of the 'stick.'nipponbilliards said:
nipponbilliards said:
Sounds like a good marketing idea to me...
It should be easy to calculate the best weight/velocity relationship for a particular shooter. For example, if a person's arm just can move faster, their cue speed will never increase. But if they can move a heavier stick at the same speed, their cue ball speed will increase. Also, you should be able to determine how much increase a person has by moving a lighter stick faster...
-td