Need some advice on an AZ transaction

[JB Cases]

I don't see how it's the sellers fault...... He sold a cue, shipped it with tracking.....
Not really the buyers fault, bit the cue was delivered right?
Probably a neighbor grabbed it up.

I know when I'm expecting a package I am checking all the time for it.

Sucks when something gets stolen, but I can't see the reasoning for it being the sellers problem.

Darcy I hate to disagree with you but I have the exact opposite position.

For 20 years I have always felt that the responsibility lies with the sender to do everything possible to get the product into the customer's hands safely.

The reason I feel this way is that the receiver can't do anything other than make requests. He can't pack it, he can't fill out the form (well these days he could with UPS/FEDEX pickup service) and he can't know if it's insured properly or not.

Therefore I always feel that the product is mine until it's safely delivered and so I insure it for whatever amount I need to recover should it be lost.

I have just always felt that this is as close to a cash-on-the-barrelhead deal as I could make it. The buyer pays me and I have the money and the deal isn't done until he has the product in his hands. The delivery service I choose is an extension of my business is how I see it.

So plant me firmly in the camp of taking 100% responsibility for the product until it gets to the buyer safely. I factor in all risk and insure accordingly.

 

[Quality Cues]

Situation is that I purchased a cue from a member on AZ and the member shipped it Fedex. The package was tracked and said to be left at my front door. I was home all day that day and their was no knock from Fedex. To shorten the story a bit, I never received the package and the seller didn't insure the package. My question is, is it my responsibility to ask for insurance? Thanks.

No. The risk of loss is with the seller until you take delivery of the cue. I'm pretty sure that even if the package had been insured, FedEx would deny the claim because the package was allegedly left at your door. I might depend if the seller sent it signature required. FedEx does not "insure" cues. One has to declare a "value," which is not the same as insurance. I never ship FedEx because of this. FedEx will not pay a substantial claim on a cue on the grounds that it is artwork.

 

[JB Cases]

hello, now I'm confused. Twelve years ago, after my first few package mishandlings through USPS, I investigated the shipping of UPS for my larger packages even though the shipping was more for the buyer. At that time, I asked what the policy was for various things and was both told and shown something (might have been an employee training manual for all I know) that the drivers were not allowed to unattended, unacknowledged packages at doorsteps. The procedure was to leave the UPS sticker on the door. And since then, I have lived in various places and have never myself had a package just left at any of my doorsteps, but of course I knew others who had and of course were very mad because of the value of the packages. I have mainly lived in urban environments, so that might make a difference. But even in a suburban condo (where I live now) the UPS driver made my aquaintance before dropping off packages in my hallway--I went to the Depot to pick up the first half-dozen after being left the UPS sticker on the door. This is in a locked lobby, and she still sought out my approval before dropping packages in my hallway.

So my question then becomes (this has never happened on any of my shipments), "How does UPS treat the status of a stolen package?"

When I insure a package, I assume that I am insuring against shipping damage (and even then there's the issue of "Was it properly packaged for shipment?) or the shippers loss or misplacement of that package. If the item indeed is stolen like this appears to be, I would argue negligence on the shippers part whether I had adequate insurance on the package or not. Not that this will, but if it involved a hugh theft, it could end up in an arbitration or court setting with the insurer and the specifics of the contract between the parties is going to be scrutinized to death by lawyers on both sides. And that has to be in writing on UPS's side, simply for their own protection and the protection of their insurer. All companies fudge the rules for profit, until the fudging of the rules costs them more than the enforcement of the rules.

So, since this has obviously happened before, and you have seen the process in action, what then does happen when someone like this demands satisfaction for a stolen parcel?

Thanks,
Randy

UPS and FEDEX now have changed to having a box on their shipping form that the seller must check to have the driver obtain a signature. Where it used to be automatic that a signature was required now it's an OPT-IN service that costs more.

The reason is that they found that they could reduce the amount of go-backs if they don't require a signature and this carries an acceptable amount of risk, i.e. the losses they have to pay for lost/stolen packages are far far far less than the costs that they incur with hauling packages back and forth to the terminal and back out to the customer over and over.

So the burden is very much on the seller and receiver to insure the package for the provable value (very important) and to make sure that someone is home and waiting to receive it.

Once upon a time a UPS driver left a package leaning against the gate on a sandy road in the hot Florida sun. That package had stickers all over it that said ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED and FRAGILE. It was sent overnight express 10am delivery and insured for $25,000.

I was so pissed off I called UPS and told them the package was not delivered. I let them sweat for a couple days, then the driver came out and begged me to look around and I relented because I really didn't want to see him lose his job.

But the reality of it is that while there are a lot of really good people working as delivery drivers a lot of them don't take all the care they should because they are under a lot of time pressure to get their routes done. You can find videos on YouTube of drivers throwing packages from the street like newspapers to a porch.

So I try to pack securely and hope for the best.

 

[cuejo]

Darcy I hate to disagree with you but I have the exact opposite position.

For 20 years I have always felt that the responsibility lies with the sender to do everything possible to get the product into the customer's hands safely.

The reason I feel this way is that the receiver can't do anything other than make requests. He can't pack it, he can't fill out the form (well these days he could with UPS/FEDEX pickup service) and he can't know if it's insured properly or not.

Therefore I always feel that the product is mine until it's safely delivered and so I insure it for whatever amount I need to recover should it be lost.

I have just always felt that this is as close to a cash-on-the-barrelhead deal as I could make it. The buyer pays me and I have the money and the deal isn't done until he has the product in his hands. The delivery service I choose is an extension of my business is how I see it.

So plant me firmly in the camp of taking 100% responsibility for the product until it gets to the buyer safely. I factor in all risk and insure accordingly.

Ummm........
My case wasn't delivered on Monday

That's a great position to take,
But I don't get it.
It is totally and completely out of your hands as the shipper, how can you personally take responsibility for someone else's job?
I have a signature not required sticker on my door for purolater, too many times I couldn't be home to get a package and sign for it. I know it's a risk but I only ever get non valuable stuff sent purolater

I guess I really don't get it, I'm always a buyer, never actually shipped anything before.
I just usually relate to the business side of things vs the consumer side.

 

[Slim Limpy]

**********

 

[Lumocolor]

i build and sell cues here and on ebay. when a buyer sends me money he has done his part, now its up to me as the seller to deliver his cue. i use the local post office. i ship my cues priority mail, insured and delivery confirmation. i have sold over 300 cues and had only one problem, the us mail snapped one cue butt in half, the insurance payed within a month. i personally don't like the old ' i put it in the mail, so now its your problem ' bs. i think the seller has more responsibility than that.


chuck starkey

I have to agree with Chuck. The buyer accepts to pay for an item and once payment is made it is the sellers top priority and responsibility to make sure it gets in the customers hands.

 

[JB Cases]

Ummm........
My case wasn't delivered on Monday

That's a great position to take,
But I don't get it.
It is totally and completely out of your hands as the shipper, how can you personally take responsibility for someone else's job?
I have a signature not required sticker on my door for purolater, too many times I couldn't be home to get a package and sign for it. I know it's a risk but I only ever get non valuable stuff sent purolater

I guess I really don't get it, I'm always a buyer, never actually shipped anything before.
I just usually relate to the business side of things vs the consumer side.

For me personally I am the one contracting the shipper to do the job for me. If the seller says to me that they will send someone to pick it up and I sign for it that way then it's done as far as I am concerned.

To me it's not any different than if I send my brother to deliver something and he stops at 7-11 and someone breaks in and steals the package.

Take it a step further and imagine you bought a big screen TV from Best Buy with home delivery. They leave it on your porch and it's not there (naturally) when you get home. What would your reaction be?

The thing is that UPS and FedEx both started out as being better than the mail because they would deliver to YOU or someone in your house before letting go of the package. But they flipped it 180 degrees and now make the shipper (or the receiver) PAY extra for that service knowing full well that a lot of people won't the extra money or will forget to check the box. So it used to be that the shipper and the buyer didn't need to worry about it because the package would be safe until actually put in a person's hands.

That's not the way it is any more so the shipper needs to take more responsibility for the transit or be very very very clear that the buyer accepts the responsibility.

Because at the end of the day anything can happen. The package can go missing anywhere in between, it can be delivered to the wrong place, it can be pilfered and sent on the way empty, it can be sent out empty, there is a lot that can happen between the time it leaves the seller's hands and the time it gets to the buyer, if it gets to the buyer at all.

So I just like to eliminate the headache and make it easy for my customers by taking on the responsibility. Luckily I have only lost one case in four years. I saw it resurface in Kansas City about a year later when someone emailed me to ask the value of it and if I could change the name on it for them.

Kevin Brewer is right that both parties should be very clear about the details. But my opinion is that if nothing is discussed then the default position should be that it's all on the seller until the goods are safely in the hands of the customer and he is satisfied.