Need tournament, handicapping, payout help!

YaktyYak

YaktyYak

Pool Player
Silver Member
Okay here it is.......

Looking at expanding a weekly tournament that is done at the local poolhall. Right now it is a $5 double elim, 100% payout, Race to 3, girls race to 2, no jumps cues, no push, no 3 foul, alternate breaks. This tourny usually draws the better players in town, for example Jason Kirkwood used to run it every week and play, and you will always find Neil from this forum playing in it. Is just a cheap way to compete with great players. Usually draws atleast 16 players with on average 20 to 25 players.

For the last 2 or so months I have been running the tournament with help from a friend on the weekly basis.

I have been playing with the idea of doing my own tournament.

Well last week I my and my friend were approached by one of the bar owners to may be expand the tournment to draw in more people and get better pay outs.

25 miles away on the same day there is another weekly tourney that is double elimination with $30 tourny fee (includes $5 greens fee) that draws is much more players. Even the players here will drive out there to play in it. It is handicapped race to 7. I believe they also do a calcutta. They also draw alot of good players, and Kirkwood will even play in that one I believe to just give ya an idea of some of the players calibur. That tourney is heavily handicapped. I believe the difference between a A and C player is 2 games on the wire, wild 5, and the breaks.

Both of these tourneys are played on 7ft tables, and the one I shoot at has Diamond Pro-Ams.

Anyways, I still want a cheap tourney to play in. Heres what I was thinking......

Race to 5
$10 entry plus $2 greens fees, could change. I figured it should be cheaper than the other guys but enough to have a decent payout. <---- Not that it makes much difference for me, I finish out of the money every week! :grin:
Attract all skill levels of players who want to play competitive pool.

Probably double elimination

No push, Jump cues, or 3 foul.

Winner Breaks

Probably handicapped but don't know of a fair way of doing it.

Possible calcutta, dunno. This adds alot of work and stress.

I was also thinking of doing a $20 member fee and award points to each player for weekly results in the tournament with possibly the top 16 or 8players playing for a tourmey championship and playing for the membership pot at the end of the session. I figured this would award players with good constistent results rather than just sandbagging a couple times and them blowing the field away. It would also keep them coming back to stay in the points hunt.

Kind of looking for ideas and how to do a payout, for example what percentage of the field gets pay, and what is the percentage increments from 1st down to say 4th, or 5-6th. Looking for ideas.

I would expect roughly 32 players on a consistant basis.

Also a good handicap method and how distribute the weight and how much. I know how most of the players shoot and could come up with an unbiased handicap.

I went to playpool.com and there tourney payout calculator doesn't work with my computer for whatever reason, I am guessing the file is too dated.

Or should I scrap all these ideas and leave it the way it is now?

Anyways thanks for reading this, appreciate any help.

-Kyle
 
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Personally, I like your idea.....used to be a Sunday tourney in Jacksonville that would draw about 30 or so players, it was only a $10 entry, although it was played on 9's....drew huge talent and some damn good players....and it was cheap enough for a player like me who was willing to lose $10 for a chance to beat/learn from great players....

Not sure about the membership fee....IMHO, keep it simple....start out with $10 entry, 100% pay-out, no greenies, but I would verbally support the room and encourage food/beer purchases.....if they don't get a good return, you can always charge greenies later....

Race to 5 sounds good, maybe 4 in the losers bracket....if somebody wins, you might kindly encourage them to take a week off, especially if they are shoulders above the rest....always good to spread the money.....advise paying about 1/4 of the field....let say out of 32, pay top 8....out of $320, maybe:

$120 first
$65 second
$45 third
$30 fourth
$15 5-8

Or something like that....keep it simple....
 
Neil said:
Here's a few of my thoughts Kyle:

1. Payout 1/4 of the field. 40%, 30%, 20%, 10%. You want people to win something so they come back.

2. The race to three that it is now, makes anyone subject to win. Although, as you already know, the better players usually win, and are always in the money. Race to 5 decreases the lesser players chances of winning. His luck won't hold up.

3. Holland tournament draws more because they have more people willing to play in a tournament, and more money players. Their calcutta can get pretty large for a small tournament. More money to win, at a low cost.

4. You can hold a calcutta here. It's not difficult to do. But it won't draw the money that the other one does. This is just a strange town.:(

5. I like the points system. But you have to set it up so a real good player can't play in just 2 or 3 and win and get enough points to play in the end one.

6. Handicapping can be a real troublesome thing to do. Maybe the better players give up a game, and the REAL good players give up 2.??

7. Why no push on the break? That APA rule SUCKS!!!!:angry: :confused: And, I feel it hurts the lesser player more. He can't kick like I can, So if he's hooked on the break, I have a GREAT chance of winning. Jump cues I can see. That helps the better player. Maybe let the C players use a jump cue.

8. It would be much preferable to hold it on a Sat. More people means it lasts longer. It already lasts till 10:00-12:00 p.m.

9. If you do it, Make sure it starts ON TIME! There are a number of players now that don't play in it because sometimes it doesn't even start until 8 or 8:30.

10. You want to leave it at alternate break. There are too many of us that are capable of putting a 5 pack down on the lesser players. That isn't very conducive to them coming back. They have to have a chance.

11. I believe it could be left the way it is, but have it start at 6 or 6:30 promptly.

12. Have set tables to play on, and the league have set tables. Open them 1/2 before tournament is to start. House is getting a cut, give a little back that doesn't cost them any $$.

13. Let the leagues know about it. The room is owned by a LO, where are all his players????? He should be promoting the dickens out of it if he wants people in it.

14. For what it's worth- I used to run it. There's a reason I don't anymore.;) ;) (Although I do still help out with it when necessary.)
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1. Agreed, I like 3 or 4 paying out for every 16 players myself, but $5 buy in, its hard to spread that kind of money so thin.

2. It does make it feasible to win at 3, but I find that half the time in such a short race it is won luck. I figured a longer race but handicapped would improve game play.

3. Yeah, GR people can be flaky.

4. Same as #3

5. I would do points so that you get atleast a point for just showing up and playing, so if there are 10 weeks, they get 10 points if they show up, while the winner of the tournament might only get 10 points for a win. 8 for 2nd,7 for 3rd, and so on and past 7 everyone gets one point. So that consistant contributors will be rewarded as much as 1 tourney win. Something like that.

6. Yeah, I just get sick of the Kirkwood shooting gallery, don't get me wrong, he deserves everything win he can get, but it sucks for the rest of us. Just to do something so the rest of us atleast have a prayer other than hopefully snapping 9-balls on 5 different racks so to say.

7. Rules can be changed, in a race to 3 I like because it takes a little luck away in such a short race. Didn't know to change them from current format or not.

8. Sat. vs. Sun. double edged sword there. You got the workday on Monday but I personally would say more people are free on Sunday vs. Saturday. Pool players aren't really the church going type. :grin: Saturday can also be full of league players and people going out for the day. Usually people plan to do stuff on Saturdays.

9. I always try to have matches going by 7:30. I think it finished up at around 10:30 - 11:00 last night. Been screwed up last 2 weeks because some stole the dry erase bracket board. I am going to hit up Kinko's this week. I'll talk to Chad, Rhonda, or Norm or somebody on that, trying to let everybody know right away that its starts going by 6:00 instead of 7 might be a headache. If the tourney got any bigger or longer races, it would have to start earlier.

10. Your're right. Unless it was handicapped and the weaker player had the breaks.

11. It can stay the way it is. I was trying to do something to improve it.

12. Usually if you ask for a table right before the tourney starts, the waitresses will ask if its a tourney table or your just renting.

13. They don't make much money on it (atleast I can't imagine that do, most of the players including myself are a bunch of coke drinkers), I could throw a flyer on the tack board right at the entrance though.

14. I like running it, but I hate worrying about it while I am playing, that is really distracting. If I could Ryan to quit gabbing a couple of times while I am shooting so he could run the board. lol:grin:

I don't know what I am going to do yet, just brainstorming. Like we were all talking last night.

-Kyle
 
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Big Perm said:
Not sure about the membership fee....IMHO, keep it simple....start out with $10 entry, 100% pay-out, no greenies, but I would verbally support the room and encourage food/beer purchases.....if they don't get a good return, you can always charge greenies later....

....
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That is one thing I have not done lately is verbally support the room, I used too. They have Diamond Pro-Ams with Simonis 860. Instead of having them professionally done, or atleast done by a qualified person, the room owner did them and it was a complete hack job. Only 8-9 months since the last change, they're are many dead or broken cushions, and cloth on some tables has wasted away. Its even hard to rack on most of the tables. I keep complaining hoping something will be done. Have not seen results yet. I would not change the current format until after they have had these tables fixed and recovered. If they expect me to run a tournament for free cokes all night and promote them if they have crappy playing conditions and want me to charge some sort of greens fees, they are sadly mistaken.

Sorry, went off on a rant there. Lol.

When they were recovered before by a pro, they played perfect, and the cloth held up decent for well over a year.

-Kyle
 
fun

I agree with Neil on most everything he says. I also think that players should be entitled to use a jump cue, be able to push out, and all that other fun stuff. Losers should break also, and it should be rack your own.

When you have better players, winner breaks makes it awfully uninviting for the weaker players. Pool is attracted by the fun involved, not the picky rules. Give the players freedom to have fun and a chance to win, and they will. Start restricting this and that, and watch them complain, slowly dwindling away to nothing.

Think about this. You want to give the illusion that that weaker player has somewhat of a chance without taking the fun away from the game. In reality, the strongest players will win anyways, so keep the game simple.


BTW. Put a special handicap on this Kirkwood fellow and make it more challenging for him to win. Maybe spot the 9 if he snaps it and make him give everyone an extra game on the wire, or two. I'm sure if you put him up to it, he would be a good enough sport to accept.
 
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Handicapping players is the best way to get more people in the tournaments. If you don't want to handicap with games, you can handicap with entry also. Everyone races to 5, Top players pay $20/enter, Mid-range pays $10, C players pay $5.

Got to have the pushout rule. Alternate breaks, aka everyone gets a chance. No jumping should be governed by the bar if they allow em, let em jump. I know some C players that can jump better than kicking.

I've seen people limit top talent from winning all the time. Win 2 weeks in a row, have to take a week or two off, etc.

Calculate the quarters made by the bar. Have them match the pot or put $5 per player into the total purse. $.75 tables x 20 matches x avg. 7 games per match. Have the bar add that much. They will make money on practice games, action, warm-up, food, drink, etc.

Most tournaments in Arizona are 150% or 200% payout. 20 people x $5 = $100, bar adds $100 = $200 payout ($90, $65, $35, $10), plus calcutta.
 
stuckart said:
Handicapping players is the best way to get more people in the tournaments. If you don't want to handicap with games, you can handicap with entry also. Everyone races to 5, Top players pay $20/enter, Mid-range pays $10, C players pay $5.

Got to have the pushout rule. Alternate breaks, aka everyone gets a chance. No jumping should be governed by the bar if they allow em, let em jump. I know some C players that can jump better than kicking.

I've seen people limit top talent from winning all the time. Win 2 weeks in a row, have to take a week or two off, etc.

Calculate the quarters made by the bar. Have them match the pot or put $5 per player into the total purse. $.75 tables x 20 matches x avg. 7 games per match. Have the bar add that much. They will make money on practice games, action, warm-up, food, drink, etc.

Most tournaments in Arizona are 150% or 200% payout. 20 people x $5 = $100, bar adds $100 = $200 payout ($90, $65, $35, $10), plus calcutta.
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The pool hall isn't going to match money or add it. If anything they might want to charge greens fee.

Thanks for the input,

-Kyle
 
How much extra money would the bar bring in if you doubled your tournament size?

Right now you have 16 - 20 players every week. Let's say 16, that's 31 matches * $.75 * 7 = $162.75 and matching nothing.

With adding money you get 30 - 40 players every week.
Let's say 32 players race to 5 double elimination tournament. That's 63 matches. Average games per match 7. Price of tables, let's say $.75.
On the tables alone they are making $330.75 during tournament play. If they added $5 per person that's $160. $170.75 profit.

Throw in the added beers, sodas, food, practice time, action, length of tourney, etc. etc. and it makes way too much sense not to add money.

I'm pretty sure any business man with some sense can see the potential and might listen to you. Who knows, you might be able to expand to 2 nights per week, 8-ball one night, 9-ball the next. I know bars that started that way and now have tourneys every night of the week and they still add money to every one.

It's worth a shot right? Which tourney would you go to if you were a player? I don't think you'd be driving 25 miles, but they might drive it for your place.

Either way, I hope it works out for you. Good Luck!!!
 
Oops, well I guess that won't work for your place. Maybe it will be helpful for someone else on this forum.

Maybe a $5 greens fee and added money would work. You'd have to do the math, but adding money and handicapping are the two best ways to get more people in your tournament. Not necessarily all the monsters will win each week.
 
If the room owner doesn't want to add money, have him offer a discount on drinks/food for the players during the tourny OR before and after. Cheaper food/beer etc. encourages people to stick around longer :)
 
YOLO said:
If the room owner doesn't want to add money, have him offer a discount on drinks/food for the players during the tourny OR before and after. Cheaper food/beer etc. encourages people to stick around longer :)
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Money is not really the issue, its a different, new, revised tournament format that I am looking for. This pool hall already has very reasonable prices on table time and food/drinks. Its the cheapest pool hall in town as far as food, alcohol, and table rates go. Then on Sundays thru Thursday (our tournament is held sunday evening as of now) pool rental costs drops from $8.00 to $4.00 an hour from 10 pm to close.

-Kyle
 
i used to do this...

run a 8 week tourney session... do it how ever u want. handicap no handicap. what ever format you want to do.

play as usual. take 20 % of the total entries and put them towards the championship tourney.

take 1st and 2nd place and add them to the final tourney.

still pay out during the weekly tournament.

if a player repeats and wins during the 8 weeks he cant be added again. say jim wins 1st week 1 and 4.. week 4 the next 2 people in the highest spots are added to the winners tourney...

so you have a pot to add to the big tourney.

make the big tourney a bigger entry to make the prize bigger for the championship payouts.

say you do 10 bucks per week entry. make the big tourney 20 or 25 bucks. i also took this entry out of their weekly winnings. this ensured the placers have incentive to show up for the big show. this also makes it easy that day cause you have all money collected. and you can announce the prize fund the last night of the regular tourney..... if one the player is a no show his entry is forfeited and kept in the prize fund. I took all names from every tourney that didnt finish in the top 2 and put them in a hat. i drew from all of those that participated during the 8 weeks giving them a wild card shot . this also brought in alot of extra people wanting a chance to get in. they have to pay the 25 entry though out of pocket. the no show money stays in the prize fund.

also put max appearence clause in. like u need to show for 6 out of the 8 weeks to prevent the 1 time huslter showing up , winning and then not returning til the big cash is available.

i did this for 2 years. it worked nice. on the big tourney the owner bought pizzas for that night in appreciation for the players.

If ya have any questions. hit me in a pm.

Pat
 
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Neil said:
Just so you are aware Kyle, Sands West is $4 and hour for 1 person ALL the time. And less than $8 for 2 people. AND, they have some old 9' long furniture that they pass off as pool tables too!
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Didn't know that, Sands always had progressive rental, the more people, the more they charged.

But breakroom is $4.00 at those times no matter how many people you had.

I liked breakroom prices because its a flat rate no matter how many people you have. And up till lately they have always had the best playing tables.

The 7' Diamonds don't play like your average bar box, they play like an 8'fter I think.

Chalky's in holland have really nice 9fters.
 
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