New APA 8-Ball Scoring...

Roadking

sweet william
Silver Member
On my APA Sun. 8-Ball league we're using a new scoring system.
1) If you beat your opponent & they don't win a game, you team receives 3pts.
2) If you beat your opponent & they win at least 1 game but don't go to the hill match, your team gets 2 pts.
3) If you beat your opponent & he goes to the hill match, your team gets 2pts & his team gets 1pt.

Is anyone else using this new scoring? Our LO said eventually the APA is switching to this new scoring system everywhere. But for now theirs only a hand full of leagues using it.
 

AcuraHeel

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We did last year in Raleigh NC. There was some good and bad from what I was told by players who scored with it. It didn't really go over that well if I remember correctly?
 

Roadking

sweet william
Silver Member
That's about how it's going here too. Last session my team was in 1st from week 1 till the last week with the old scoring system. But with the new scoring system we wound up in 3rd & lost in the playoffs.
The thing I don't like is let's say your shooting to go to Vegas & your team wins 3 matches 2-0 2-0 2-1 so your up 6-1 but then your next 2 matches your team looses 3-0 3-0. So the final is your team looses 7-6 but your team won 3 out of 5 matches.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Was there a reason given for the change? My guess is that they are experimenting with the scoring system to see if it would help to eliminate/reduce sandbagging. A players team/coach may not approve of the player letting up/dogging balls if they got a big lead in a match if it was going to cost the team points. I dunno.

Maniac
 

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This system has been around for 5 years or more. We had 1 division with the modified scoring. However it was 2 points for a win 1 point to the loser if it went to the hill. The captains were given a choice between the 3 point system and 2 point system and opted for the later.

The modified scoring division was done away with this past summer though. While it seemed to give the weaker teams a better chance to make the playoffs, the stronger teams (3) finished in the top 4 every session. This scoring system did make it so most if not every team had a chance for the playoffs right until the last week. Even being down 10 points you still had a slim chance.
 

Bohemian

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We have been using this format here in Vegas for a few seasons, and there is a huge problem with it because they have clearly redefineed the equalizer system as far as 8-ball goes and they are heavily weighting games won over how one actually played...

In the double jeopardy league I'm in nearly every new player is 2 skill levels higher in 8-ball than 9-ball...

E.g. I have 2's and 3's that never make 2 balls in a row in 8 or 9 and average well in excess of 20 innings for an entire match, no safetys unless told to...

So htf can these individuals be a 5 in 8 and a 3 in 9?

Answer... APA is trying to split teams up faster, thinking that will make them grow bigger (more money)...

Problem is its back firing and long time Teams and individuals are bailing The APA altogether and going to all the other new leagues popping up, that don't do this or 23 rule bs so there is no incentive to sandbag...

I hope the APA gets a clue...
 
Last edited:

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
The entirety of the APA should be using the this system by now. It seems to have some flaws but my personal thought is that it more accurately reflects (however small it may be) the players true skill level. I do think that I prefer the former scoring system though, but that's just me.
 

Mardayo

Registered
Yes we have been useing it for about a year in my south chicago apa league. They told us it was to work on sandbagging.
 

Bohemian

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The entirety of the APA should be using the this system by now. It seems to have some flaws but my personal thought is that it more accurately reflects (however small it may be) the players true skill level. I do think that I prefer the former scoring system though, but that's just me.

I agree to disagree, they have clearly artificially weighted number of games won (match score) over how somebody actually plays...

Its unnaturally driving skill levels up and chasing away new and established players and entire established teams to leagues that don't penalize players for getting lucky...

When you are rating players who can never run two balls in a row, can't spell safety, and often have 20-50 inning plus sets of 2-3 games rated as 5's in 8 and 3's in 9 your handicap system is fubar on the eight ball side IMHO...
 

sciarco

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA scoring

We also use the same scoring system here in the CPA IN Canada which i think is run by the APA.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
we have been using the 3 point scoring system for a year now. as others have said ...under the new system you could win 3 out of 5 matches and still lose.

under the old system you could drag out your matches...running up innings ...winning hill-hill without ever having to play your best.

with the new system you have to play your best...especially if you are behind after a couple of matches. having to play your best in situations like that reduces sand bagging.

i think it adds excitement and pressure knowing that you are behind going into the last match and need a shutout for 3 points to win.

since i don't sand bag and don't condone it from any one who plays for me i have no problems with the new system.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
I agree to disagree, they have clearly artificially weighted number of games won (match score) over how somebody actually plays...

Its unnaturally driving skill levels up and chasing away new and established players and entire established teams to leagues that don't penalize players for getting lucky...

When you are rating players who can never run two balls in a row, can't spell safety, and often have 20-50 inning plus sets of 2-3 games rated as 5's in 8 and 3's in 9 your handicap system is fubar on the eight ball side IMHO...

While we may disagree I do see your point. I think that win percentages play a much smaller part and points scored play a rather large part in handicapping. Regardless of who your S/L 2, or 3 might play they usually win at least one game and that (usually) puts them on the hill and scores your team a point and soon increases their S/L while the higher S/L players don't change nearly as often and it can almost impossible to move down.

I think you and I might be seeing the difference in LO's. My feeling is that ours here is completely fair and doesn't see or even look at names when inputting data and leaves the handicapping to the software. I know a lot of you don't see it that way where your LO is concerned. Most of our team has been together for at least 10 years and the core for about 20 and suddenly our 3's and 4's are becoming 4's and 5's, but I think that may more about match ups and S/L management.

If it were up to me I'd try to match up our lower S/L players against the oppositions higher S/L players where as our captain likes to match up similar S/L's if he can. This new scoring system can cause you to rethink your strategy, but I do feel if the data is is put in fairly and accurately, the players true S/L is a bit more accurately reflected.
 

JimmyRayK

Gina collector
Silver Member
They need to rethink the 9 ball rules. They're horrible. No pushout and the point based system is a joke.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
They need to rethink the 9 ball rules. They're horrible. No pushout and the point based system is a joke.

i think the idea behind the current rules is that it does give lower S/L players a (sort of) fighting chance against better players. A push out would give a real advantage to Higher S/L players vs a lower S/L player. I believe the Masters Division plays like "real" 9 Ball, push outs, jump cues, make the 9 to win.

Maybe the APA could insert a rule that senior players (S/L's 6, 7, 8, 9) when playing other senior S/L players may utilize the push out.
I think the rule prohibiting the push out is the most common complaint
 

rhatten

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stop the madness!... Support a healthy game / league structure... Find/create an American Rotation group in your area. You'll find a lot less complaining, less donating money to the higher ups in a league gone awry, play in both regional and nation events right beside other CSI national events and you can help others play better pool (all games). Players win, room owners win and pool wins.

Imo..We need to stop damaging the brains of the people that pay into 'pool businesses'. We need more good people playing good pool not just more bodies learning to hate at another group (team), then forced to regroup because someone needs more moneys "upstairs". American Rotation is here, built by a player and for the players. All moneys go back into the game for the players to get better and pool businesses to survive locally. More good happy players playing good 'pool game structure' equals better for all. just my 2 cents.

Randy
 

brophog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The players that really know how to sandbag, it hasn't grossly affected. Some players are simply very good at knowing when and how to miss and how to disguise those such that they are hard for the opposing scorekeeper to spot. For these people, it really comes down to the league operator and his/her people manually watching players to ascertain their true ability. That takes both knowledge and an extra layer of work.

So, while it may be harder for some to manage their handicap, I don't believe it has thwarted the true offenders (those which tended to be manually spotted to begin with). However, the change has facilitated another intended effect; helping lower level players feel like they contributed. In the 3 of 5 system, they were fillers. They played only so better players could play under the 23 rule.

But with the new scoring system these lower players provide significant points, even while losing. They can even be played in situations where before they are big underdogs, because they now could get a point for winning as little as one game. Lower level teams can actually exist and be competitive by selectively throwing players in games where losing well is a good result.

The system has a number of holes in it, not the least of which is the rule book. While APA 9 ball is often criticized because it isn't really 9 ball (and it isn't), there is a reason other leagues use ball count in 8 ball rather than game count for handicapping purposes....it is far easier. It is common for a skill level 3 or 4 to be able to make balls but not run out and be consistently beaten by a better player in 8 ball. It is hard to offset that difference in player ability systematically as much of it is the player simply learning to play better (like not running into one ball hell to begin with). But in APA 9 ball, with a ball count system, that lesser player an easily be given a fair spot based on the number of balls pocketed. It isn't an all or nothing system. That better facilitates the casual player that makes up the lower handicaps, and a great deal of the bulk of the playerbase.

APA 9 ball is a better handicapped system, even though APA 8 ball better represents the game. In games where only the game ball counts, such as these two games are, both solutions are problematic.
 
Top