New jump rule??

[JB Cases]

John, Just because you are a proponent of jump cues, (AND in the business of selling them) does not mean your lengthy dissections are indisputably correct.
You have a habit of talking down to anyone who disagrees with your take on ANY given subject.
You tend to throw $10,000. bets in their face (which is really a huge turn-off to most hard working middle class guys) knowing you will not be called.
In our last heated exchange, I thought we agreed to disagree.
I will still spout my beliefs, just as you have a right to assert yours.
However, you should not treat everyone who doesn't see the world through your eyes...as an uninformed idiot.
That is very disrespectful.

Dick

PS. I will ALWAYS view jump cues, as tatamount to a "foot wedge" in golf. Also, regardless of what you espouse, the skill to use one or the other is about equal. JMHO

Dick, it's alright. You're right that just because I write a contradicting viewpoint does not make it correct. That's the purpose of the forum to debate these topics and those watching can read everything and come to their own conclusions.

However it gets frustrating, especially in regards to this topic, to see anti-jump cue people spouting opinion as if it's fact. If you have facts then state them so they can be addressed. But if you don't know the history of an item or the history of the rules surrounding it then don't make comments as if you do.

I suppose that I do talk down to some people some times. I tend to think that it comes from dealing with the silly statements that are made. Maybe if people stopped trying so hard to PUT DOWN people and things with nothing more than assumptions and speculations presented as fact then I wouldn't be so condescending when rebuffing those statements.

All I have seen so far it is that the anti-jump cue crowd considers just about everyone who uses a jump cue to be an idiot.

Despite the facts.

Every single point that the anti-jump cue crowd makes against them has been rebuffed successfully by me and others plenty of times.

They take no skill to use - plenty of examples otherwise.
They destroy the integrity of the game - plenty of examples otherwise.
They cause people not to learn to kick - plenty of examples to the contrary.
They destroy the cloth and the slate - completely untrue.

And so then all that the anti-jump crowd is left with;

I don't like them - true, so just say that and leave it at that without making up things that are untrue to support your feelings.

Of course we can agree to disagree. You present your side and I present mine. It's highly unlikely that once you have a position that you will change your mind even in the face of plenty of evidence to the contrary. The debate however is not to get an anti-jump cue person to convert, it's to lay out the facts which counter the opinions and let those members of the audience who are still on-the-fence decide for themselves which stance they prefer.

 

[JB Cases]

I have a jump cue & can use it very well. Granted I have been playing this game a long time but it took me about a minute to figure out how to use it. I got it because so many are using them now & you gotta have the gimicks to compete. Do I think jump cues should be allowed. NO. I think if one is going to jump it should be done with a regular playing cue. Jump cues take too much away from decent safety play. This of course just my opinion but when I play a decent safe on a player that can only run 4 or 5 balls & they pull out a jump cue and make a hit when they couldn't come 10 rows of an a**hole of kicking it it's enough to make me sick. Any idiot can jump with a jump cue.

What is a "regular playing cue"?

Should one regular cue be any better than another one when it comes to jumping balls?

With my Tim Scruggs sneaky I could jump almost as well as with my jump cue. With my P2 Predator cue I could barely jump the cue ball off the table much less get it over another ball.

So if you are playing with a cue that doesn't "jump" well and I am playing with one that does then should that be allowed?

Why can't everyone have the same starting point, as in a jump cue that works the same for everyone, and then that person's skill will dictate how well they can use it or not.

I call this sour grapes. Good players who used to be able to get away with mediocre safeties can't anymore. Time to go back to the practice table and get better at putting that rock in a place that takes away the jump shot.

I did.

Not only did I become very good at jumping balls with control, I also tightened up my safety game so that when I leave a jump shot it's low percentage for much good to come out of it. I am a much better player because of the jump cue and my own inner dedication to master the offensive shots it gives me as well as to master how to defend against it.

 

[SJDinPHX]

What is a "regular playing cue"?

Should one regular cue be any better than another one when it comes to jumping balls?

With my Tim Scruggs sneaky I could jump almost as well as with my jump cue. With my P2 Predator cue I could barely jump the cue ball off the table much less get it over another ball.

So if you are playing with a cue that doesn't "jump" well and I am playing with one that does then should that be allowed?

Why can't everyone have the same starting point, as in a jump cue that works the same for everyone, and then that person's skill will dictate how well they can use it or not.

I call this sour grapes. Good players who used to be able to get away with mediocre safeties can't anymore. Time to go back to the practice table and get better at putting that rock in a place that takes away the jump shot.

I did.

Not only did I become very good at jumping balls with control, I also tightened up my safety game so that when I leave a jump shot it's low percentage for much good to come out of it. I am a much better player because of the jump cue and my own inner dedication to master the offensive shots it gives me as well as to master how to defend against it.

John,

My final reply to you on the subject is this. If TE rules had not drastically changed the game, from the old push out rule, we would not even be having this discussion.
Granted that rule change is not your fault. (but you love it now, don't you?)
The new generation doesn't even understand that that single rule change made 9 ball much more of a crap shoot than it ever was.
In normal length tournament races, 9 ball has become a joke.
Now the direction is to add another ball (10 ball) and try to make it more competitive. (and longer) Now we have more balls to duck behind, thus more jump shots to be flailed away at.
It wasn't broke before, why try to fix it ? Oh, I know TV.... 15-20 years later, ESPN now has a few hours every year devoted to 6 month old re-runs, trick shots or the ever riveting "speed pool".
It was much more exciting watching two top player's tempt each other with
tough shots, than to turn 9 ball into a safety game, where jumping in self defense became a nescessity.
TE rules, single handedly led to an upsurge in one pocket, as the better player's made that their game of choice for high stakes gambling.
Thank God, jump cues have not invaded 1P, YET. Or it might become another casualty of the "get out of anything" mindset.
I realize I have wandered a little far afield here, but in hindsight it is a shame pool players have never been able to organize, and set firm rules for the betterment of the sport, not special interest promoters.
Sadly I don't see that coming in my lifetime, if ever.
And you are right about one thing, I will never see jump cue's as anything but but a gimmick that has changed every game it has invaded....for the worse.
It may sound old school, but the good old days really were GOOD !!!

Say goodnight John,

Dick

 

[JB Cases]

John,

My final reply to you on the subject is this. If TE rules had not drastically changed the game, from the old push out rule, we would not even be having this discussion.

I agree with you. I prefer two foul push out nine ball as well. However jump cues were technically invented during a time when two-foul nine ball was still played in most pool rooms. I guess the upside to this is that people have in fact improved their kicking skills tremendously with the advent of Texas Express rules. There are now more books and tapes and instructors for kicking than ever before. I truly believe that as a group, players are more rounded now than they were with two foul nine ball.

Granted that rule change is not your fault.
The new generation doesn't even understand that that single rule change made 9 ball much more of a crap shoot than it ever was.

Again I agree with you. Any billiard game that depends on hitting just one ball to be a legal shot becomes one where lucky rolls are much more influential on the outcome, especially in short races under the one-foul ball in hand rules.

In normal length tournament races, 9 ball has become a joke.
Now the direction is to add another ball (10 ball) and try to make it more competitive. (and longer) Now we have more balls to duck behind, thus more jump shots to be flailed away at.

Agreed.

It wasn't broke before, why try to fix it ? Oh, I know TV. ESPN has a few hours every year devoted to re-runs. (trick shots or the ever riveting "speed pool")
It was much more exciting watching two top player's tempt each other with tough shots, than to turn 9 ball into a safety game, where jumping in self defense became a nescessity.

Robin or Randy should explain why they came up with TE rules but I think the primary motivation was to insure that tournaments could be finished in a weekend, hence the Express part of the ruleset.

The thing is though that some "normal cues" really do jump better than others, so when someone rolled out to a jump shot under the old rules the person who a cue that was suited to jumping also had an advantage over one who did not, assuming both were of relatively equal skill.

TE rules, single handedly led to an upsurge in one pocket, as the better player's made that their game of choice for high stakes gambling.

Maybe, but I think that TE led to an upsurge in 9-ball as well as they were the first ones to have consistent tournaments coast-to-coast. I don't see why two players who know how to play two-foul nine ball couldn't agree on that as the game they were going to play. I remember that back in the late 80's when I used to match up in 9 ball we'd clarify if we were playing TE rules or not.

Thank God, jump cues have not invaded 1P, YET. Or it might become another casualty of the "get out of anything" mindset.

Didn't John Schmidt and Danny Harriman have an argument over using the jump cue in their one pocket match? I have seen jump cues used many times in one pocket - sometimes successfully and most times not. Although I have used one a time or two I agree with you that they really don't belong in that game. If for no other reason that in one pocket you can always take a deliberate foul and not lose the game.

I realize I have wandered a little far afield here, but in hindsight it is a shame pool players have never been able to organize, and set firm rules for the betterment of the sport.

On this point I couldn't agree more. Pool is probably the most fragmented competitive activity on Earth.

Sadly I don't see that coming in my lifetime, if ever.

I am with you on this.

And you are right about one thing, I will never see jump cue's as anything but but a gimmick that has changed every game it invades, for the worse.

Say goodnight John,

Dick

Well I think that under the current rules jump cues are not only necessary but they also add to the game by bringing in a lot more skill shots that wouldn't otherwise be there.

Goodnight.

John

 

[mongoose-]

Not an insult, at all. I'm sorry you took offense. Certainly wasn't my intention to insult you.

However.............

Your safety game can obviously use a bit of work if a rank beginner can easily jump and make contact with the correct ball. Regardless of the level of your game, which you state is "a low A level game," if it's so easy to jump out of a hook, that hook isn't good enough. Sorry if I said something obvious.

With some of the fellows I know, when they lay down a safety, there's no jump there, at least if they're laying a good one.


Flex

Flex that is correct if a ball is hooked about frozen it can't be jumped to make contact. However not all safeties are hooked frozen is what I meant. Everyone can use practice on their safety game I am just saying my safety game isn't a beginner by no means. NOBODY lays down safeties 100% of the time that are unjumpable... if that guy you are playing with does I would get him on the road. My apologies if I took your previous comment wrong... it was late & that was how it looked to me.

 

[mongoose-]

What is a "regular playing cue"?

Should one regular cue be any better than another one when it comes to jumping balls?

With my Tim Scruggs sneaky I could jump almost as well as with my jump cue. With my P2 Predator cue I could barely jump the cue ball off the table much less get it over another ball.

So if you are playing with a cue that doesn't "jump" well and I am playing with one that does then should that be allowed?

Why can't everyone have the same starting point, as in a jump cue that works the same for everyone, and then that person's skill will dictate how well they can use it or not.

I call this sour grapes. Good players who used to be able to get away with mediocre safeties can't anymore. Time to go back to the practice table and get better at putting that rock in a place that takes away the jump shot.

I did.

Not only did I become very good at jumping balls with control, I also tightened up my safety game so that when I leave a jump shot it's low percentage for much good to come out of it. I am a much better player because of the jump cue and my own inner dedication to master the offensive shots it gives me as well as to master how to defend against it.

John you are entitled to your OPINION as I am mine. I however don't have any trouble jumping with my Predator. Good luck to you.

 

[metallicane]

Having not read this entire thread, I would not be against banning the jump cue. There is nothing worse than hooking your opponent and then watching them jump over the impeding balls. I love watching Reyes and Varner kick at balls and MAKE them to boot.

 

[Dave Nelson]

"I played Hopkins when climbing on the table was the norm, I bet not many remember that. Hopkins would be on his knees in the middle of the table. He seemed to love it. As far as jumping, how would you determine what is a hook? Often you just jump half a ball but are not really completely hooked.. It would be a source of constant argument. "
When was that? I've been playing off and on since 1940 and I don't remember it. One foot on the floor has been the rule for a long time.

 

[catscradle]

I am watching the 2001 Challenge of Champions. Allen Hopkins stated that he thinks there should be a rule that if you hook yourself, you cannot jump. But, if your opponent hooks you, you can. What do you think of this?? Obviously, it never became a rule, because this is 8 years later. But, I think his idea has a lot of merit to it.

I think it is a stupid idea frankly, I'm surprised it came from Hopkins. (Note: I think the idea is stupid, not you) I would prefer jump shots were illegal at all times,but if they're allowed any time they should be allowed at all times.

 

[Flex]

Flex that is correct if a ball is hooked about frozen it can't be jumped to make contact. However not all safeties are hooked frozen is what I meant. Everyone can use practice on their safety game I am just saying my safety game isn't a beginner by no means. NOBODY lays down safeties 100% of the time that are unjumpable... if that guy you are playing with does I would get him on the road. My apologies if I took your previous comment wrong... it was late & that was how it looked to me.

Not a problem, Ben, glad to see you are very reasonable too. :smile:

As for the fellow, actually fellows, I'm referring to, well, one of my best pool playing friends would love to go on the road, but well, he's married with children, has a regular job, and that's a no-go.

There are some hustlers/money players I know who can lay those killer safes almost at will, but don't usually do it, or else their ability to make games would disappear. Oh, and they are run out players too. Put that safety making ability together with a runout game and it's a deadly mix. One of those guys is also married; I won't mention his name, as it won't help him if I do, natch.

As you know, there are safes that kill and those that simply slow someone down.

One of the reasons I learned to jump was one of those money players who I used to match up with would give me a big spot, and when the time was right lay a devastating safe, end up getting ball in hand, and you know the rest of the story. Playing those guys forced me to learn how to kick, but how to jump too, as some safes leave no kicking route, and jumping is the only option. That fellow won't play me if I jump, so guess what, we don't play any more, for that and other reasons (however the main reason isn't because of jumping.)

There's another thing. Jumping well is a true skill; it's one thing to simply hit a ball and quite another to master the skill.

I appreciate your perspectives.

Flex

 

[JB Cases]

John you are entitled to your OPINION as I am mine. I however don't have any trouble jumping with my Predator. Good luck to you.

Of course. My point, which I can easily prove to you, is that there are regular cues which are better suited to jumping than others. If we ever happen to be in the same room with a table then I will prove it to you.

I didn't just come across this knowledge by accident. it was through deliberate study since I was selling jump cues I wanted to really understand everything about jumping balls with a full cue and with a jump cue.

When someone challenges me to jump with a full cue then I can demonstrate that quite well and explain the limitations that are imposed by the cue as well as the physical stance one must adopt to perform the shot.

A jump cue just makes the playing field equal for all, just like a chalked tip does. And that's a fact.

 

[mongoose-]

Not a problem, Ben, glad to see you are very reasonable too. :smile:

As for the fellow, actually fellows, I'm referring to, well, one of my best pool playing friends would love to go on the road, but well, he's married with children, has a regular job, and that's a no-go.

There are some hustlers/money players I know who can lay those killer safes almost at will, but don't usually do it, or else their ability to make games would disappear. Oh, and they are run out players too. Put that safety making ability together with a runout game and it's a deadly mix. One of those guys is also married; I won't mention his name, as it won't help him if I do, natch.

As you know, there are safes that kill and those that simply slow someone down.

One of the reasons I learned to jump was one of those money players who I used to match up with would give me a big spot, and when the time was right lay a devastating safe, end up getting ball in hand, and you know the rest of the story. Playing those guys forced me to learn how to kick, but how to jump too, as some safes leave no kicking route, and jumping is the only option. That fellow won't play me if I jump, so guess what, we don't play any more, for that and other reasons (however the main reason isn't because of jumping.)

There's another thing. Jumping well is a true skill; it's one thing to simply hit a ball and quite another to master the skill.

I appreciate your perspectives.

Flex

Thank you Flex. I agree that a jump shot is very skillful. I would also say that with anything times are changing and the old schoolers as myself whether like it or not are going to live with the fact that jump cues are here to stay. Good luck with your game in the future.