Nickle to Dime Radius = Less deflection?

twal

twal

"W"
Silver Member
About a year or so ago I was really worked up over less delfection this and less defltion that. Well I am over most of that... I think :).
During that time I came across someone who told me that if you simply go from a nickle shape to a dime shape this will actually reduce deflection.
I was doing a search today and really could not find much information on the subject. Does anyone have any info on this subject. Any tests?? Or is this even logical?
I do believe that a softer tip will deflect less. I think that was supported by something I saw on Kamaui's web site or a post here at opne time. But that is a hole seperate subject.
 
twal said:
About a year or so ago I was really worked up over less delfection this and less defltion that. Well I am over most of that... I think :).
During that time I came across someone who told me that if you simply go from a nickle shape to a dime shape this will actually reduce deflection.
I was doing a search today and really could not find much information on the subject. Does anyone have any info on this subject. Any tests?? Or is this even logical?
I do believe that a softer tip will deflect less. I think that was supported by something I saw on Kamaui's web site or a post here at opne time. But that is a hole seperate subject.
Click to expand...
I've never thought about this, but after thinking about the tip shape it does make sense. I play with a nickel shaped tip that eventually gets flatter in the middle and maybe after reading this I should pay more attention to the curve of the tip. I like a tip with thin side walls with a nickel shape and i've noticed a lot of the pros like this type of tip also. I never thought about the tip shape versus deflection.

James
 
twal said:
About a year or so ago I was really worked up over less delfection this and less defltion that. Well I am over most of that... I think :).
During that time I came across someone who told me that if you simply go from a nickle shape to a dime shape this will actually reduce deflection.
I was doing a search today and really could not find much information on the subject. Does anyone have any info on this subject. Any tests?? Or is this even logical?
I do believe that a softer tip will deflect less. I think that was supported by something I saw on Kamaui's web site or a post here at opne time. But that is a hole seperate subject.
Click to expand...
You can find lots of detailed info and additional resources on these exact topics here:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Years ago, Bob Meucci said that a dime shape results in less deflection than a nickel shape.
 
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Dr Dave. Excellent info.
So it does appear that that simple change form nickle to dime radius of the tip will result in less deflection. Wow good to know.
Okay, so what about the tip itself? I am not talking about spin. I am talking about a hard tip vs. a soft tip.
In Dr daves article is stated that regarldess of hard or soft the spin is not more or less with either tip.
But what about deflection? Was Kamaui right (the softer the tip the less deflection or "squirt")?
 
twal said:
Was Kamaui right (the softer the tip the less deflection or "squirt")?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming the softer the tip the longer it stays on the cue ball. The harder the tip is the quicker it pushes the cue ball to the side (squirt).
 
twal said:
About a year or so ago I was really worked up over less delfection this and less defltion that. Well I am over most of that... I think :).
During that time I came across someone who told me that if you simply go from a nickle shape to a dime shape this will actually reduce deflection.
I was doing a search today and really could not find much information on the subject. Does anyone have any info on this subject. Any tests?? Or is this even logical?
I do believe that a softer tip will deflect less. I think that was supported by something I saw on Kamaui's web site or a post here at opne time. But that is a hole seperate subject.
Click to expand...
I think one reason, and perhaps the main reason this might be true, is that a flatter tip (nickel shape) should result in the shaft moving sideways more during impact (ball rotation) than a more sharply curved tip (dime shape). It's a matter of geometry. Just as you have to offset the shaft slightly more with a flatter tip to hit the same spot on the cueball, it will tend to be displaced more (sideways) while the cueball gathers up spin--the tip has to roll along with it. It's this sideways movement (momentum) of the shaft that produces squirt.

Jim
 
twal said:
Dr Dave. Excellent info.
So it does appear that that simple change form nickle to dime radius of the tip will result in less deflection. Wow good to know.
Okay, so what about the tip itself? I am not talking about spin. I am talking about a hard tip vs. a soft tip.
In Dr daves article is stated that regarldess of hard or soft the spin is not more or less with either tip.
But what about deflection? Was Kamaui right (the softer the tip the less deflection or "squirt")?
Click to expand...
If the softer tip is lighter (which it probably is), there will be less "squirt" (AKA "cue ball deflection").

However, with a softer tip, the contact time is slightly longer. This can have a small effect of increasing the effective tip offset (i.e., the amount of English) slightly, which would increase the amount of squirt, but only slightly. For more info, see Bob's quote here:

Having said all of this, I don't think tip hardness has a significant effect on squirt.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
If the softer tip is lighter (which it probably is), there will be less "squirt" (AKA "cue ball deflection").

However, with a softer tip, the contact time is slightly longer. This can have a small effect of increasing the effective tip offset (i.e., the amount of English) slightly, which would increase the amount of squirt, but only slightly. For more info, see Bob's quote here:

Having said all of this, I don't think tip hardness has a significant effect on squirt.

Regards,
Dave
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Dr. Dave,

In that the ball takes longer to spin up, I don't think that you necessarily get a greater effective offset with a softer tip, despite the increased contact time, except to the extent that a softer tip is less efficient. It's of course not easy to quantify, but I think that general considerations and an analogy from the linear case supports this.

Jim
 
Jal said:
dr_dave said:
If the softer tip is lighter (which it probably is), there will be less "squirt" (AKA "cue ball deflection").

However, with a softer tip, the contact time is slightly longer. This can have a small effect of increasing the effective tip offset (i.e., the amount of English) slightly, which would increase the amount of squirt, but only slightly. For more info, see Bob's quote here:

Having said all of this, I don't think tip hardness has a significant effect on squirt.
Click to expand...
In that the ball takes longer to spin up, I don't think that you necessarily get a greater effective offset with a softer tip, despite the increased contact time, except to the extent that a softer tip is less efficient. It's of course not easy to quantify, but I think that general considerations and an analogy from the linear case supports this.
Click to expand...
Good points Jim. There are many factors related to tip hardness that could influence squirt, including: tip density/weight, tip efficiency, ball turn during contact time, "effective endmass" due elastic-wave travel-distance during contact time, etc.

Some students and I did some experiments when I still had my squirt robot, and the softer tip we tested did seem to create slightly more squirt than the hard tip we tested, but our experiment was not very well controlled. FYI, the experimental results and my conclusions can be found on page 2 of my August '08 BD article.

Regards,
Dave
 
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