Nine Ball Break- Scratch Strategy

R

recoveryjones

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A few months back I was playing nine ball and lost on 3 fouls after initially miscueing when attempting to break the balls.I miscued and completley missed the pack.

I thought my opponent would take ball in hand and re-break the pack like the majority of people do. Instead he took ball in hand and placed the cue ball to the right of the pack 12-18 inches or so and about a foot back towards the breaking end of the table.He then grazed the one ball (ever so thinly barely disturbing it) with right hand sidings and left me hooked behind the pack.Because the one ball had barely moved I had only a portion of it to hit as I attempted a kick shot off the side rail.I missed the one and the pack completely, although ever so slightly. He took ball in hand again and hooked me behind the pack again with the exact same shot. This time I hit a ball that was snuggled up beside the one(the one was still only half exposed) and lost the game on 3 fouls.

In hindsight I could have smashed the pack open after the first hooking , however, the guy was a good shot and capable of running a table.With ball in hand (even though the balls would be now spread) he could have also hooked me again.His strategy won him a game and completley took me by surprise as I was feeling a titch rattled.A (difficult)missed kick attempt or breaking the pack open option , either way, puts my opponent at a distinct advantage.

The other day someone else miscued when attempting to break the pack. I employed the same strategy and also won the game.Hey, it's legal, so why not give it a try? RJ
 
recoveryjones said:
A few months back I was playing nine ball and lost on 3 fouls after initially miscueing when attempting to break the balls.I miscued and completley missed the pack.

I thought my opponent would take ball in hand and re-break the pack like the majority of people do. Instead he took ball in hand and placed the cue ball to the right of the pack 12-18 inches or so and about a foot back towards the breaking end of the table.He then grazed the one ball (ever so thinly barely disturbing it) with right hand sidings and left me hooked behind the pack.Because the one ball had barely moved I had only a portion of it to hit as I attempted a kick shot off the side rail.I missed the one and the pack completely, although ever so slightly. He took ball in hand again and hooked me behind the pack again with the exact same shot. This time I hit a ball that was snuggled up beside the one(the one was still only half exposed) and lost the game on 3 fouls.

In hindsight I could have smashed the pack open after the first hooking , however, the guy was a good shot and capable of running a table.With ball in hand (even though the balls would be now spread) he could have also hooked me again.His strategy won him a game and completley took me by surprise as I was feeling a titch rattled.A (difficult)missed kick attempt or breaking the pack open option , either way, puts my opponent at a distinct advantage.

The other day someone else miscued when attempting to break the pack. I employed the same strategy and also won the game.Hey, it's legal, so why not give it a try? RJ
Click to expand...

While it may be played that way in your neck of the woods, I've never heard of this kind of ball in hand. Every tourney I've ever watched or played in had the following rule:

On the nineball break, if you fail to hit the pack and your cue ball has gone beyond the headstring, opponent's only options are letting you break again or breaking himself from behind the headstring. Regardless of opponent's decision, you're on a foul.
 
Do they play that way in

recoveryjones said:
A few months back I was playing nine ball and lost on 3 fouls after initially miscueing when attempting to break the balls.I miscued and completley missed the pack.

I thought my opponent would take ball in hand and re-break the pack like the majority of people do. Instead he took ball in hand and placed the cue ball to the right of the pack 12-18 inches or so and about a foot back towards the breaking end of the table.He then grazed the one ball (ever so thinly barely disturbing it) with right hand sidings and left me hooked behind the pack.Because the one ball had barely moved I had only a portion of it to hit as I attempted a kick shot off the side rail.I missed the one and the pack completely, although ever so slightly. He took ball in hand again and hooked me behind the pack again with the exact same shot. This time I hit a ball that was snuggled up beside the one(the one was still only half exposed) and lost the game on 3 fouls.

In hindsight I could have smashed the pack open after the first hooking , however, the guy was a good shot and capable of running a table.With ball in hand (even though the balls would be now spread) he could have also hooked me again.His strategy won him a game and completley took me by surprise as I was feeling a titch rattled.A (difficult)missed kick attempt or breaking the pack open option , either way, puts my opponent at a distinct advantage.

The other day someone else miscued when attempting to break the pack. I employed the same strategy and also won the game.Hey, it's legal, so why not give it a try? RJ
Click to expand...

Boy did u get robbed. You did not make a legal break. There is no foul.
The game has not started until you legally hit the one ball. You should have merely attempted your break again. That is the way we have played forever.
There will be some Canadians coming for a tournament this weekend, I will make sure they are not playing that rule.
 
sjm said:
While it may be played that way in your neck of the woods, I've never heard of this kind of ball in hand. Every tourney I've ever watched or played in had the following rule:

On the nineball break, if you fail to hit the pack and your cue ball has gone beyond the headstring, opponent's only options are letting you break again or breaking himself from behind the headstring. Regardless of opponent's decision, you're on a foul.
Click to expand...

Hi SJM,

It's like that in my neck of the woods also. You get cue ball in hand only once a legal break has occurred. That includes fouling, scratching, driving a ball off the playing surface or the newest one, failing to drive four ball past the side pocket on a break (UPA 2003)! BCA may have different rules for 8 ball. I think one of the folks from Texas Express posts on this forum from time to time. I hope they weigh in on the subject!
 
Thanks for the feedback on this ruling, I'll check into it.I've noticed in the past that the BCA, the VNEA and the other league(???) sometimes have different rulings on various subjects. Can anyone tell me how all three would rule on a breakshot miss such as the one I explained or where I could find such info?

Although I've never heard of a re-break by the person who has miscued, you guys sound like you know your stuff.Over here the guy that miscues has allways past the break onto his opponent and been credited with one foul. RJ
 
Actually I posted this article on another form and apparently in BCA rules in might be legal afterall. Here's the posters response to my orginal post:

What RJ described is allowable under BCA rules.

5.4 (1) The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

(2) If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

(3) If on the break shhot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not repotted (exception; if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is spotted).

The breaker did not satisfy (2) so his opponent has BIH on the table.
 
The breaking rule could however, be an entirley different ball game under VNEA and other leagues rules. Any feedback , much appreciated.
 
Read it again

recoveryjones said:
Actually I posted this article on another form and apparently in BCA rules in might be legal afterall. Here's the posters response to my orginal post:

What RJ described is allowable under BCA rules.

5.4 (1) The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

(2) If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

(3) If on the break shhot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not repotted (exception; if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is spotted).

The breaker did not satisfy (2) so his opponent has BIH on the table.
Click to expand...

Sorry it would not be ball in hand. The one ball was not struck so it is not a legal break. The ball was not pocketed or driven off the table, he just missed the rack. That is not ball in hand. In my interpretation you cannot commit a foul until you hit the one ball. If they want it as a foul they should say
in rule 1. "The breaker must strike the one ball first and if he does not its a foul, ball in hand". Otherwise it can be confusing.
 
I see your angle on it SS and I guess it comes down to how one interprets the reading of the rules.

5.4 (1) The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

(If the breaker does not do the above he has not met the requirements of the opening break)

5.4 (2) If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.
It can definitely be interpreted both ways and you are right in saying it should be worded better to avoid confusion. As for me I’m now unsure how to interpret that rule. :confused:
 
I had the same thing done to me by some A player in Toronto a while back Ironically, when i tried ot do it one time during a tournament here in Asia, the refererree said i couldnt do it becuase it wasnt a legal break (not enough balls hit the rail, not that the 1 ball wasnt hit).

so thats weird. Guess its a canadian thing.
 
TheFish said:
I had the same thing done to me by some A player in Toronto a while back Ironically, when i tried ot do it one time during a tournament here in Asia, the refererree said i couldnt do it becuase it wasnt a legal break (not enough balls hit the rail, not that the 1 ball wasnt hit).

so thats weird. Guess its a canadian thing.
Click to expand...


It's not nessecarlly a Canadian thing because only one guy ever did it to me.He told me it was perfectly legal. I just assumed he was right.I'll check with local pros John Horsfall and Paul Potier. Thanks, RJ
 
recoveryjones said:
I see your angle on it SS and I guess it comes down to how one interprets the reading of the rules.

5.4 (1) The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

(If the breaker does not do the above he has not met the requirements of the opening break)

5.4 (2) If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.
It can definitely be interpreted both ways and you are right in saying it should be worded better to avoid confusion. As for me I’m now unsure how to interpret that rule. :confused:
Click to expand...
Under BCA rules, see Rule 5.14 END OF GAME
On the opening break, the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the cue tip. The 1-ball must be legally contacted on the break shot. Therefore:
1. The game has started when the cue ball is struck.
2. The breaker did not strike the 1-ball, therefore did not meet the requirements of a legal opening break.
3.Under Rule 5.4(2), it is a foul and the incoming player has ball in hand anywhere on the table.

In contrast, under APA league rules, a foul cannot occur until the rack has been struck. So if the breaker misses the rack entirely, he simply gets another crack at it.

Walt in VA
 
canwin said:
two words: pussy pool
Click to expand...

Hi Canwin,

I could write a real good poem in response to your reply and get another flaming war going, but oh no....this time ole RJ ain't gonna bite. :D


.....RJ has learned his lesson. :p
 
RJ, my posts aren’t meant to be mean spirited but I just couldn’t resist. As much as I hate the p word, its the only way I can describe my utter contempt for how far to the extreme people can go with this ball in hand thing. When I read a post with another example of an extreme case of BIH, followed by a list of BCA and ACA or whatever rules, I remember a time when there was a shred of dignity and common sense associated with the game, and you didn‘t have to carry around different rule books with you to investigate what rule fit what situation. Its amazing how, “as long as its legal” caters to the lowest common denominator/ behavior, "anything to win"attitude, etc. I know you didn't write the rules, but I still cringe at the way 9-ball is played now. I still would like to hear you’re poem, especially a real good one. Laughing with you, not at you. canwin

PS. If you write the poem, maybe I'll write "You know your a pool pussy when"
 
recoveryjones said:
A few months back I was playing nine ball and lost on 3 fouls after initially miscueing when attempting to break the balls.I miscued and completley missed the pack.
Click to expand...

TE rules might be clearer regarding this situation.

Texas Express Rules 2002
3.0-3 LEGAL BREAK

The 1 (one) ball (object ball) (or substituted lowest numbered ball on the foot spot) must be struck first by the cue ball and a minimum of 4 (four) numbered balls driven to any rail, or a numbered ball legally pocketed.

3.0-4 ILLEGAL BREAK

Failure to execute a legal break (refer to rule 3.0-3) constitutes an illegal break. The foul allows the incoming player to rack and break.

3.0-5 FOULS PRIOR, DURING OR AFTER THE BREAK

Once the cue ball has been driven or accidentally bumped past the headstring by the chalked area of the cue stick tip (with the player in the bridge and stance position), it will be considered an attempt to break. If a foul occurs during any break attempt that results in a (legal break, refer to rule 3.0-3); then the incoming player has cue ball in hand. If a foul occurs during any break attempt that results in an (illegal break, refer to rule 3.0-4); then the incoming player racks and breaks. Any attempt to impede the path of the cue ball during a break by any means is a foul; including within the headstring area. (If a legal break occurs, the opponent has cue ball in hand) (If an illegal break occurs) the opponent racks and breaks. Any attempt to break that results in the player hitting the cue ball more than once is a foul; including within the headstring area. (If a legal break occurs, opponent has cue ball in hand) (If an illegal break occurs, opponent racks and breaks). Any numbered ball driven off the table (off the playing surface and not pocketed) is a foul. (If a legal break occurs, opponent has cue ball in hand) (If an illegal break occurs, opponent racks and breaks). Any attempt resulting in the cue ball being pocketed or driven off the table and not striking the rack is a foul; and, the opponent break. If the cue ball leaves the table on an otherwise legal break, the opponent has cue ball in hand; and, if an illegal break occurs; a re-rack and break. All numbered balls that are driven off the table are out of play and will be placed in a pocket (manually pocketed) and any numbered balls pocketed remain in the pocket. The only numbered ball to spot is the 9 (nine) ball. If the foot spot is being occupied by a numbered ball; the 9 (nine) ball will be spotted in the next closest area behind the foot spot on the line (the long string) from the center of the foot spot to the foot rail. Any attempt to break that results in the cue ball striking a rail prior to the rack is a foul; (if a legal break occurs, opponent has cue ball in hand) (if an illegal break occurs, opponent racks and breaks). Any foul occurring prior, during or after the break is included in the 3 (three) foul rule and is considered the first foul.
 
All the tournaments, including international ones, have had the rule that you have a ball-in-hand if your opponent touches the cueball with the tip of his/her cue. Might be miscue, might be accidental touch on one of the warm-up strokes, but no one has yet to cover one of solutions if you find yourself behind the almost full rack and on one foul. I find that attempting the to hit the 1-ball from here is a little bit tricky and I don't want to break the rack open with a foul shot, so I try to hit the pack in a way to drive the 1-ball to the opposite side of the table without disturbing the rack much. Like this on wei table:

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ3O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK5N4%HM7N8%IL7O4%PE5N1
%Uf5Y8%VO5O8%WJ0N2%XF2N0%YM8R0%ZM4Q4%[L9L6%\L6M1%]N8M2%^N2N0
)END

If my opponent is good enough to make the 1-ball from BIH and play position for the two and either run out with breaking the pack open or leave me a tough safety for the 3-foul-and-out, he deserves to win. If he plays a thin safety behind the rack from the 1-ball, I find the escape quite easy. If he manages to freeze me behind the rack in an uncomfortable angle, he deserves to win.
Possible outcome:
Safety from the 1-ball. Quite easy escape, a little bit more difficult if cueball frozen to pack, but not impossible.
START(
%Ar0T6%BL8Q7%CJ3O4%DL9M4%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK5N4%HN1N3%IL7O4%PE0P0
%Ub5[0%Vq2S6%WF5P8%Xa3[2%Yr5V5%Zq8U2
)END

And take a look at the situation. I'd say it's not easy to make the 1-ball and play a good position for the 2-ball to play a difficult safety from it.

I think I've fouled myself maybe 20 times from the break over the years in tournaments and always followed this method if my opponent was to start the safety battle and maybe 2 times lost the rack on 3 fouls and never my opponent has run out from there. And 1 time I lost was because I legally hit the ball from a safety on 2 fouls but unfortunately scratched and the other occasion when I tried to hit the 1-ball from the first safety and missed.

Most pros will use this same system, if someone tries to take an "easy" win with 3 fouls.
 
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