No dispute that Efren is the GOAT, but who is the 9 ball GOAT?
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This reminds me of an interview chess champion Bobby Fisher did where he was asked who the greatest off all-time was... he said if Morphy (unquestionably one of the most talented of all-time) came back today 150 years later, he would have a hard time against masters players, let alone grandmasters, because of the advancements in game theory and knowledge learned from those that came before them. It's not a perfect analogy because of all the memorization in chess but I think it very much still applies and should be considered when we try to determine who is the "greatest." Do we mean the most talented?... or do we want to know who would win if we had a time machine and got all the greats in their prime together to play? This is just me, but I wouldn't necessarily consider the winner of the latter the greatest. Domination of the competition (quality of competition considered) and taking the game to a new level would probably be my top factors. It's funny how despite being a somewhat obnoxious and sometimes impossible question, I think we all like to talk and think about it nonetheless.
Nick Varner flew to the Philippines and beat Efren in a long match…but most telling, he hung around for a couple more days…
…..didn’t get offered a rematch.
Society is more organized too. Tighter filtering of people for starters. Soon as you add corporate motive...
Francisco Bustamante can smash em.
All of you are wrong aside from OP
Efren revolutionized 9-ball. He stomped over everyone like King Kong until they figured out how to kick safe. Efren was so good at escaping what were considered "captain hook" safes, absolute lockup safes, it just blew everyone away. Excellent cueball, excellent pace, and he followed the Al Davis mantra "Just win, baby, win". He snatched victory so many times that we can't even count.
Most of the guys you mentioned in the vintage trifecta used "hit and hope" as a real strategy. Even when they figured out how to play, he was the undisputed master of creative play and ferocious defense for 20 years.
GOAT for sure. All modern play is based on his style.
Efren revolutionized 9-ball. He stomped over everyone like King Kong until they figured out how to kick safe. Efren was so good at escaping what were considered "captain hook" safes, absolute lockup safes, it just blew everyone away. Excellent cueball, excellent pace, and he followed the Al Davis mantra "Just win, baby, win". He snatched victory so many times that we can't even count.
Most of the guys you mentioned in the vintage trifecta used "hit and hope" as a real strategy. Even when they figured out how to play, he was the undisputed master of creative play and ferocious defense for 20 years.
GOAT for sure. All modern play is based on his style.
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Also anyone who says Buddy Hall is the GOAT after he dumped and basically wrecked the game should just stop talking now
But he only stomped ‘em for one tournament. He virtually (or literally)lived in the States for a couple of years, and between 1985-1989, I only recall him winning two more tournaments that all the great players were in attendance (Bicycle Club and Sands). Sigel, Strickland, Hall and Varner were the top players that could be counted on to win any tournament. Efren was always counted on to come up as runner-up *if* he made it to the finals. Modern day play looks more like Sigel and Hall than it does Efren, IMO.
My top picks for greatest 9-ball players
Lassiter
Sigel
Strickland
Hall
Varner
Johnny Archer
Mika Immonen
Francisco Bustamante
Alex Pagulayan
Shane Van Boening
I suspect one or all of the other top of today will be on my list (FSR, Fedor, Filler) but time will tell. They cant just dominate for a year or two.
But the greatest of these?
Strickland - highest gear
Sigel - greatest tournament player
I’ll debate. When they polled the players for greatest of all the various disciplines in the early 90’s, Varner was voted as the top 9-baller.
Player of the Decade for the 80’s had to be Sigel
90’s was Archer
00’s was Mika
Earl had bursts, and was the greatest player of 1988. Not 1987 (Sigel) or 1989 (Varner). But his high gear was higher than any else’s. Efren is not in the discussion.
In the early 70's Buddy matched up with Jimmy Rempe at Weenie Beanie's Jack 'n' Jill Cue Club in Arlington, VA. 10 games ahead freezeout for $25,000. This was when Rempe was winning one tournament after another, and Buddy was a relative unknown in tournament play.
It was a winner breaks format. Buddy broke and ran the first 6 racks, then came up dry. Rempe ran out, but then when he came up dry himself in the next game, that was the last time he got out of his chair. Counting the rack he ran after Rempe's dry break, Buddy finished off with a 4 pack.
The table time was 45 cents.
WobblyStroke
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Finally, Mika gets a shout out. Whaddaplaya. Nice list.
About Efren being runner up so much... if you watch back some of those finals, it is almost laughable how many times people wave or cough while he's down shooting. Guy got sharked like crazy. So did Busty. There were even some instances of them getting clearly jobbed by refs. Those two were treated like road players showing up to a local tourney. Bad draws, biased reffing, and anything goes sharking wise. They'd have won a lot more if the deck wasn't so stacked against them.
I'm talking about overall talent, not talking gears or tournaments. Even after the 80s, Efren won the cash and made a lot of top players look stupid.
Notice he always won the biggest dollar events, maybe he just got lucky
My old buddy Pittsburg John was there…he figured King James was the tournament star…..but Buddy had the edge in action.…
……he unloaded on the backroom gambler
Yes I noticed that he seemed to win the largest prize events (100,000 vs earl, IPT winnings but that was 8-ball) but then again Earl won several world championships in 9 ball that also had good prizes at 100k or near that and Efren was never player of the decade, and I don't think even player of the year on the PBT or Camel tour. I would not put him in the top ratings for any decade or even a 5 year stretch. Varner had amazing years when he won a dozen big events, Sigel the same, Earl is not really a question. For 9 ball Efren was top 8 for the era but don't think he was ever on top for more than a short spurt here and there. Overall game and shot selection he may be one of the best sure, but for winning tournaments with top players year after year, not so much. As in my first post, the thing to look at is for who the other players considered the best, Efren was everyone's favorite player but I don't think he was a large pick amongst the pros as the "best", while Lassiter, Sigel and Earl were, as was Varner for a good amount of time. Danny Deliberto said SVB is the best he has seen, including Lassiter and Reyes and he played against both of those players personally.
Maybe today's Shane. Shane slipped past his prime, but he still plays well enough to beat almost anyone.
Jose Parica came first….Nicky said Jose made him change his game.
The pros resented him a ton, don't discount that. He came over and slapped the shit out of them. They called him "Efrem" indifferently after he was eating their lunch, and they didn't stop for years.
Lots of pros praise god too, but God isn't pocketing a 9ball for you, so I don't think their opinions matter as much as actual results. Efren showed a level of kicking prowess and safety play that he routinely disabled jump shots and stole racks. Ran plenty of them too.
Efren made the game incredibly popular globally, Buddy Hall made it less popular than Cornhole
I truly dislike Earl Strickland but at his best he was the best. He basically invented the jump shot and he did it with his playing cue. That changed with way the game was played. Mike Sigel may have been the second best. All around Efren without a doubt. Most creative Efren without a doubt. Master of the Table (so to speak) Efren without a doubt. Straight pool, Mizerak or Sigel.