No holy grail?

[WhatRobEats]

I work 40 hours a week and put in about 2 to 3 hours of practice each night. I play close to 6 hours on my days off. I'm starting to think I might fall into this group you mention.

For some players, even practice won't improve their game much, brutal but honest.

Doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying though. I enjoy my hobby and enjoy the table time I put in. I'm just waiting for the day all the pieces come together. Or maybe they won't?

 

[SmoothStroke]

practice is boring to some... not to me

Sports that I competed in. My first love was baseball.
Football, basketball, hockey, paddleball, archery, and pool. If you don’t know what paddleball is it is a very fast game played with a black handball and wooden paddles, you can get your head split open easily.
Injury killed my possible baseball career, was told I would never be the same and they were right. I tried and had lots of problems. I was a pitcher and I was miserable.
My paddleball doubles partner went to Florida, when he came back he said you have to play tennis. I was not interested but I gave it a try. I BECAME OBSESSED. I traded my baseball glove for a Bancroft Bjorn Borg racket, had no clue who Bjorn Borg was.
I would go to a local high school and try to get on the court with others but they wanted no part of me. I wasn’t very good but I had the natural ability.
Every day I went to the handball wall and hit tennis balls from 5,10,15,20, 25 ft, 6,8,10,12 hours a day.
Forehands, backhands, volleys, 1/2 volleys, lobs, serve; you name it I hit it, for hours.I could lose up to 7 lbs in a day.
From practicing so close to the wall and having to hit the ball on 1 bounce my footwork and reaction to the ball became amazingly quick.
When I finally got on the court (7 months later) my opponent would hit the ball and I could have a martini and a cigar waiting for it, even take a short nap.
In 2 years I won The Eastern Hard-court Championship. A major tournament which was a qualifier for another tournament. I played guys from the most prestigious tennis academys with 10 to 20 years experience and won.
I had an open stance on my forehand, basically a nono in tennis if you read any books on preparation. You didn’t want to play to my forehand I would kill you.
Every stroke was solid but my service return was off the chart. (Due to my footwork and reaction) from practicing so close to the wall, it, had to be.
I became an instructor. I would tell my students not to come for lessons for a month, just go to the wall and do what I say. Needless to say the owner did not like that. I asked him if he thought I was a good player (he was sponsoring me) he said no..you are a great player. I said I learned against a handball wall. He said ok do what you do but please don’t lose my clientele.
I am all for knowledge and lessons and any technique that can help.
Bottom line….Gain all the knowledge you can then read my boring story again and go play.
Knowledge is power, as long as you apply it 6 – 12 hours a day

 

[JB Cases]

I do want to say that there can be TOO MUCH INFORMATION. For us amateurs, at least for me, it's becoming increasing difficult to keep all the information out of my head when I play.

90/90 CTE TOI BHE DTD ........ and the terms that go with them, ETC ABC Visual Sweeps etc.... it seems that the more we try to explain these methods the more acronyms and rules we have. As a practioner, albeit a lazy one, of these methods I find that they get jumbled in my head sometimes.

I can definitely see that someone who hasn't even tried them and who might be on the skeptical side could look at all this and say it's nonsense because frankly sometimes it sounds like gibberish.

There are days when I wish I had never heard of aiming systems. I wish I had never heard of deflection or my personal favorite thing I wish I had never heard of, effective cut angle charts.

I would at some point like to go back to being a player who simply plays. I can never unring the bell of knowledge though and so I will always use some form of systematic approach to aiming but I really hope that someday I personally can stop discussing it and just get to the point where I do it automatically and don't think about it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

said it better myself

Guess what? To get better is going to take hard work practicing and doing the reps. You will not find salvation on a DVD, only some potentially interesting techniques that may or may not be occasionally useful along the way.

But you're still going to have to do the roadwork if you want to perform consistently at a higher level.

Lou Figueroa

I couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbup:

 

[BeiberLvr]

You know what's worse than users of an aiming system thinking their system is a magic bullet?

People that actually believe we think that.

The only claim I've ever made about any aiming system is that it (with practice, of course) allows you to pocket balls at a higher percentage.

Disagreeing with that claim is like saying pushing down more on the gas pedal doesn't make you go faster.

 

[JB Cases]

Knowledge is power, as long as you apply it 6 – 12 hours a day

Knowledge is power as long as you apply it period.

You don't need mountains of practice to learn and use good methods. You may need that much practice to master and evolve those methods though.

Some people consume and others create. In order to create you must consume.

I would say that in my shop we invent/discover a new way to put leather pieces together every three days or so. Maybe not new to everyone but new to us. However whatever we do is firmly grounded in hundreds of years of solid leather working concepts and hundreds of hours of lessons from living and past masters.

I guess I am really tired of the people who say that some people can never be good no matter how much they practice. I just don't believe that. I think that human beings have unlimited potential and there are plenty of stories of people who changed their lives and became world class at things.

People automatically jump straight to the very top and say well you will never be a world champion if you start late......that might true because the field is SO STRONG that anyone who actually wins a world championship had to battle against many players capable of beating them. So the odds are that even if the person starting late has the ability to win he also needs to be fortunate to get the rolls when he needs them. But if I started at 40 to REALLY dedicate myself to pool then I feel it's entirely possible that by 50 I could be world class, and by world class I mean capable of beating ANY player on the Earth at any time, a legitimate threat to them and able to run over all lesser players.

In pool we have very few examples of anyone trying. What we do have is plenty of examples of people who are fairly strong but who don't put in the effort after a certain point and then they stall at whatever level they are at. We have plenty of examples of people who DON'T put in the work.

And every example we have of people at the top the one common trait is that they all work hard on their game. Whether it's by diligent practice or staying in constant action they are always hitting balls and staying sharp.

So I agree, knowledge + application = higher skill. If coupled with dogged persistence then I feel there is no limit.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[JB Cases]

Guess what? To get better is going to take hard work practicing and doing the reps. You will not find salvation on a DVD, only some potentially interesting techniques that may or may not be occasionally useful along the way.

But you're still going to have to do the roadwork if you want to perform consistently at a higher level.

Lou Figueroa

Well, one thing is for sure, if you DON'T know what's on the DVDs then you can't know how useful they are or not.

As for "finding salvation" that's an interesting choice of words. Because salvation implies getting to the place of peace and joy and being "saved" from a horrible afterlife.

So in pool the horrible life is constantly losing, constantly missing, constantly selling out. Salvation would be missing seldom, winning often, playing correctly. I submit that, like the bible, salvation CAN be found on a DVD if whatever you find there is something that gets you to to a place where you can miss less, win more and play right. And like the bible just reading the words or just watching the tape doesn't get you there. But it can lead you there.

 

[xplor]

The Holy Grail is a myth. You were looking for the wrong thing. All pool players are street level venture capitalists. Do you notice how many road players and pros die broke? The real game is to make your money work for you. What you want is the brass ring. Notice some players after their pool game has passed they still try to sell their glory to others.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The only "magic bullet" is discovering a way to hit the cue ball straight every time

Pool takes practice.........in related news......water is wet. :thumbup:

The only "magic bullet" is discovering a way to hit the cue ball straight every time. If a player can't do this part correctly, there's no system available, it would be like trying to build a skyscraper without a solid foundation.

 

[JB Cases]

The Holy Grail is a myth. You were looking for the wrong thing. All pool players are street level venture capitalists. Do you notice how many road players and pros die broke? The real game is to make your money work for you. What you want is the brass ring. Notice some players after their pool game has passed they still try to sell their glory to others.

And some players don't die broke. What's wrong with selling your knowledge and concepts? What else should a player sell?

I mean people get paid to lecture and teach when they are an expert in other fields BASED on their accomplishments so why is that a problem if a pool player does it?

 

[tucson9ball]

Knowledge is power as long as you apply it period.

You don't need mountains of practice to learn and use good methods. You may need that much practice to master and evolve those methods though.

Some people consume and others create. In order to create you must consume.

I would say that in my shop we invent/discover a new way to put leather pieces together every three days or so. Maybe not new to everyone but new to us. However whatever we do is firmly grounded in hundreds of years of solid leather working concepts and hundreds of hours of lessons from living and past masters.

I guess I am really tired of the people who say that some people can never be good no matter how much they practice. I just don't believe that. I think that human beings have unlimited potential and there are plenty of stories of people who changed their lives and became world class at things.

People automatically jump straight to the very top and say well you will never be a world champion if you start late......that might true because the field is SO STRONG that anyone who actually wins a world championship had to battle against many players capable of beating them. So the odds are that even if the person starting late has the ability to win he also needs to be fortunate to get the rolls when he needs them. But if I started at 40 to REALLY dedicate myself to pool then I feel it's entirely possible that by 50 I could be world class, and by world class I mean capable of beating ANY player on the Earth at any time, a legitimate threat to them and able to run over all lesser players.

In pool we have very few examples of anyone trying. What we do have is plenty of examples of people who are fairly strong but who don't put in the effort after a certain point and then they stall at whatever level they are at. We have plenty of examples of people who DON'T put in the work.

And every example we have of people at the top the one common trait is that they all work hard on their game. Whether it's by diligent practice or staying in constant action they are always hitting balls and staying sharp.

So I agree, knowledge + application = higher skill. If coupled with dogged persistence then I feel there is no limit.

Very well written.....I agree that some people have to work harder than others to get to the same level.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I do want to say that there can be TOO MUCH INFORMATION. For us amateurs, at least for me, it's becoming increasing difficult to keep all the information out of my head when I play.

90/90 CTE TOI BHE DTD ........ and the terms that go with them, ETC ABC Visual Sweeps etc.... it seems that the more we try to explain these methods the more acronyms and rules we have. As a practioner, albeit a lazy one, of these methods I find that they get jumbled in my head sometimes.

I can definitely see that someone who hasn't even tried them and who might be on the skeptical side could look at all this and say it's nonsense because frankly sometimes it sounds like gibberish.

There are days when I wish I had never heard of aiming systems. I wish I had never heard of deflection or my personal favorite thing I wish I had never heard of, effective cut angle charts.

I would at some point like to go back to being a player who simply plays. I can never unring the bell of knowledge though and so I will always use some form of systematic approach to aiming but I really hope that someday I personally can stop discussing it and just get to the point where I do it automatically and don't think about it.

Hi John,

I don't know a whole alot about CTE/Pro1 but TOI certainly seems more simple even than the way I have been playing with english for 46 years.

I am intrigued by CTE/Pro1, but it certainly seems to have alot of pieces to the assemebly. As someone else said I would have to incorporate my own terminology to make it more user friendly.

I just wanted to point out to you how simple TOI appears.

Best Wishes to You & the Family,

 

[JolietJames]

I took lessons many years ago. It was my instructor who pointed out that I had a banana stroke. I had no idea. He worked with me on straight in stop shots for the better part of my first two lessons (one a week). He even stood just to my right and slightly behind me to keep me from pulling the cue away from my body on the back stroke, (when I did, I would hit him with the cue). This got my stroke straight. Once that was fixed he gave me different drills to do each week. I was probably playing 30-40 hours a week. I went from maybe an APA 4 level to a good 6 in less than 6 months. We never discussed aiming. Never. Getting a good stroke and doing the reps were the ticket for me. I take years off at a time these days and don't put in the time anymore. I'd guess I'm a low B player and will be for as long as I have a job.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I guess I am really tired of the people who say that some people can never be good no matter how much they practice. I just don't believe that. I think that human beings have unlimited potential and there are plenty of stories of people who changed their lives and became world class at things.

That's just not true with pool, and possibly other things as well. I would agree that any capable person can become at least an A player with the right amount of practice and dedication. However, not every single person will become top tier, and it doesn't matter how much they practice.

I don't believe in a complete plateau, but I do believe that everyone stops having significant improvements after a certain point.

 

[JB Cases]

That's just not true with pool, and possibly other things as well. I would agree that any capable person can become at least an A player with the right amount of practice and dedication.

However, not every single person will become top tier, and it doesn't matter how much they practice.

I firmly believe that every person who is not mentally or physically handicapped can reach top tier in pool. I believe that it very much matters how much and how they practice.

The assumption is that if you take a 45 year old B player and give him 10 hours a day with a top level coach then he still can't reach the upper level and I say that I do not believe it. So far no one has really tried so we don't know do we?

I don't believe in a complete plateau, but I do believe that everyone stops having significant improvements after a certain point.

You say that but can you point to any person who spent ten hours a day practicing who did not become world class?

My point is that plateaus happen because effort stops.

Of course improvements get smaller over time. Every semi pro can be expected to run out an open rack but how many will run out if the cue ball is stuck to the rail a couple times?

SVB practices this so if his make % is 70% vs 40% over the rest of the field then that plays out in his favor over many games and matches.

The idea that a person has limits is limiting. And the catch22 is that a person cannot know their limits until they have truly tried to go as far as possible.

After all the crusaders did not know there was no Holy Grail until they went halfway around the world looking for it. Sometimes you just have to go and see things for yourself to find out how far you can go.

We could look at some of the pros and ask them? Why isn't Tony Robles ranked higher? Hunter Lombardo works and yet is himself a world class player who works on his game but HOW much does he work on it? Look at Max Eberle, a guy who is always there, always a threat but just seems to be not quite in the elite ranks. He decided to focus on straight pool beofre the DCC and managed to get a good win over Dennis Orcullo in the Straight Pool Challenge on 10ft tables. Would he have done so well without the effort?

We don't know but Max himself gives the extra practice credit for improving his 14.1 skills.

Mosconi, toured with Greenleaf playing straight pool every day for months, very competitive got beat when they started out and ended up with a close record at the end. Toured himself for years and played 14.1 every day. Thousands and thousands of hours a year. How can you not learn every shot, every move, every situation under those conditions?

SVB - monster dedication, endless hours of patient study to understand everything possible with the cue ball. This is what it takes to not only understand the subtle difference of an inch too far but to have the skill to park the ball where you want it constantly.

So my point is that every top player you find they have put in the time and the time is generally commensurate with what level of player they are.

Oscar Dominguez? He is on here as Mexpoolplayer so we can ask him. He is a top player, world class for sure. He was born with a world class coach and has certainly put in time but he also has a job installing tables with his dad. So while Shane is practicing Oscar is putting tables together. Does this make a difference? I think it does. I don't think that Oscar is less talented than Shane I think he is simply in a different position in life that does not afford him the same opportunity to focus exclusively on pool playing that Shane has. Maybe I am wrong but the fact that Oscar spends less time working on his game in my eyes plays out on the table between himself and SVB. Even though Oscar might have a winning record against Shane he doesn't have the same success in events overall and I think it's because he doesn't put the same hours in.

Of course we can't really take just two players and compare them this way and say that THIS is the only reason. But the research in Talent is Overrated showed that the biggest difference between the best performers and the next level was very simply hours of practice. There were NO elite performers who had the same amount of practice as the lower level group but were still elite.

No, ALL the elite performers had about the same amount of lifetime practice time in and that amount of time was significantly higher than the next tier lower. So I guess we will will have to disagree on this because I think humans place their own limits on themselves far more than whatever natural limitations might be there.

 

[JB Cases]

Hi John,

I don't know a whole alot about CTE/Pro1 but TOI certainly seems more simple even than the way I have been playing with english for 46 years.

I am intrigued by CTE/Pro1, but it certainly seems to have alot of pieces to the assemebly. As someone else said I would have to incorporate my own terminology to make it more user friendly.

I just wanted to point out to you how simple TOI appears.

Best Wishes to You & the Family,

I wasn't really speaking to the complexity of any particular method just the amount of them rattling around in the head.

I think all these methods are like the workout videos. You have to put in the time until such time as you can do it effortlessly. I can confidently say that with CTE I can play pool without thinking about CTE.

BUT

Sometimes a shot will come up and I will think ok 90/90 or now I will think let me use TOI on this shot EVEN THOUGH I haven't fully absorbed or practiced TOI enough to know what I am doing and B to do it on autopilot.

This is my point on a limited amount of time it's really hard to commit and exclude all else and thus at least for me bits and pieces from many different methods linger in my mind.

That's why I said just the volume of methods out there now can be daunting to anyone who isn't "into" them. Prior to 2002 I would have also dismissed "aiming systems" as not really needed and overcomplicating a simple act. I was enlightened by Hal after he went out of his way for whatever reason to arrange for me to meet him. In the interim I don't know if I have helped or harmed the general acceptance of aiming systems but I know I can't get them out of my head. Which is good for my shotmaking but not good for my sanity

 

[Str8 Shooter]

I can tell you this now that I have watched the toi ppv. Your going to have to toss your cte system away if you want to use TOI in the way Cj's has created the system and how he see's it should be applied. A run out will be the same also but the approach to the individual shots will be different then you normally play.

I know cj doesn't want to hear this but the TOI has a built in aiming system in it :groucho:

 

[CJ Wiley]

an amateur will practice something until they can do it right, however.............

That's just not true with pool, and possibly other things as well. I would agree that any capable person can become at least an A player with the right amount of practice and dedication. However, not every single person will become top tier, and it doesn't matter how much they practice.

I don't believe in a complete plateau, but I do believe that everyone stops having significant improvements after a certain point.

"The difference between an amateur and a professional, is an amateur will practice something until they can do it right, a professional will practice{that same thing} until they can't do it wrong"

I agree with this 100%, it's "The difference that makes all the difference" - to use another popular quote.....and of course 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

"CTEp and CTC is like the sights on a gun, TOI is the Gun".

I can tell you this now that I have watched the toi ppv. Your going to have to toss your cte system away if you want to use TOI in the way Cj's has created the system and how he see's it should be applied. A run out will be the same also but the approach to the individual shots will be different then you normally play.

I know cj doesn't want to hear this but the TOI has a built in aiming system in it :groucho:

Yes, Center to Edge is part of TOI, like sights are part of a gun. "CTE and CTC is like the sights on a Gun, TOI is the gun"..(metaphorically speaking of course)...and 'The Game IS the Teacher' ....literally, and figuratively