No holy grail?

JB Cases said:
This whole line of argument is a giant red herring. Again NO ONE has said that x-method WILL make you a pro.
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No, they may not have said it directly, but you can bet when a DVD from PRO X comes out and players run to buy it, there is some implication that if you follow "my" methods, you "could" be a pro and we, as consumers, hear, "I'll watch this DVD over and over and practice and be playing like a god in no time".

A year ago all I heard at almost every pool room was "PRO ONE" aiming system, then it was CTE, now I'm hearing "oh, I'm using a touch of inside" and now, SVB, the #1 player in the world or very close, is coming out with an instructional DVD with....wait, you guessed it, his aiming system. To each his own, these guys put in the time and if they want to sell a DVD, awesome. Will I buy it, probably not, but I'm sure for every one person who doesn't, 10 will.

Chris simply stated his opinion, he didn't say NOT to buy anything and he has a very valid point. What makes you a pro? at anything? Practice and dedication...more practice and then even more practice! If you can use an instructional DVD to get better, great. My overall jump to the next level came when I had a personal lesson with Lee Brett. Best money I ever spent...and he didn't even try to sell me a DVD! :)
 
vapoolplayer said:
If ANYONE assumes there is any implication that watching a dvd will get you to pro speed very quickly.....they should probably get their head examined.
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Then why are there all these DVDs out? "You'll be playing better pool in no time", "play like me after watching my DVD" and every other catch phrase! I'm not saying I believe it, but when something is presented to you in manner that you will have "noticable results", like a weight loss commercial, people will fall into it....and yes, I agree...anyone who believes it needs a shrink! :D
 
I am with you Tank....I think the one on one is gonna be the best way to go. I can watch these dvds over and over but until I see it in person its just not happening for me. Then with practice and my faults corrected I believe that I can get to the next level.
 
I have a Nick Varner drill book....it guarantees you will be improved after you can do what's in the book. Duh...they are practice drills...and not simple ones at that!
 
John Barton,

I have to disagree that anybody can get to A player/Pro level if they put in the correct effort. Some players lack the will/desire to win and the hatred of losing. You just can't teach that stuff.
I do agree that they can raise their level of play, but not to the highest level.

Lou Figeroa,

You pretty much said the same thing I just mentioned above. Spot on in my books!

CJ Wiley,

I wish you all the best in DVD sales. I'm sure if we met in person, you could teach me a thing or 2. Keep hittin em :thumbup:
 
vapoolplayer said:
If someone wants to change their mindset, you can surely train people to win mentally. Sports psychologists do it all the time. Obviously one must want to change, but with the desire, there is the ability to change.
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I'm having a hard time believing this too John. For me it's because I do feel like I'm putting in the effort and have the mindset that I WANT TO change. Practice 2 or 3 hours a night. I've watched a few 'instructional' videos and play for hours on end on my days off. I see small improvements but I've still yet to run a single rack in 9 ball. I struggle with basic concepts like what whitey is going to do after I hit, ect...

I don't think it's due to lack of desire at all. Like I said earlier I'll keep on trying though because even though it's frustrating for me it's that good kind of frustration that makes hackers continue to go golfing.
 
vapoolplayer said:
Describe what you do for 2-3 hours a night. Also, how long have you been playing?
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I've been playing off an on for about 10 years. I've had a table in my basement for the last 2 years. For the past 6 months I've been taking the game very seriously and practicing for the 2 or 3 hours mentioned above.

I start by shooting about 100 balls into the corner pockets from the foot spot to work on my stroke and keep it consistent. After that I will play a couple of games of FARGO. After those few games I sit down on the couch and take a break for about 20 minutes then I start playing 9 ball. Each time I miss I give a progressing number of balls to the ghost. I start with 1 ball and so on. To me it's a good game to play alone to work on position play.

When I've had enough 9 ball I'll throw balls on the table and just shoot them out in no particular order, or I will work on bank shots and kicks.

If there are any particular drills that you or anyone else is willing to advise to me I will most certainly do anything else to get better.
 
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I suggest you try more structure for at least half of your practice time for maybe 8 weeks. You may find doing actual drills will help. There are many good drills on youtube or subscribe to Kinister's site for 3 months to see more options. You are definitely not allocating your practice time to get the most out of it.
Just my two cents...
 
WhatRobEats said:
I've been playing off an on for about 10 years. I've had a table in my basement for the last 2 years. For the past 6 months I've been taking the game very seriously and practicing for the 2 or 3 hours mentioned above.

I start by shooting about 100 balls into the corner pockets from the foot spot to work on my stroke and keep it consistent. After that I will play a couple of games of FARGO. After those few games I sit down on the couch and take a break for about 20 minutes then I start playing 9 ball. Each time I miss I give a progressing number of balls to the ghost. I start with 1 ball and so on. To me it's a good game to play alone to work on position play.

When I've had enough 9 ball I'll throw balls on the table and just shoot them out in no particular order, or I will work on bank shots and kicks.

If there are any particular drills that you or anyone else is willing to advise to me I will most certainly do anything else to get better.
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That's a lot of practice time. It's possible there are things inherent in your mechanics that are slowing your progress and you are further reinforcing them., maybe a visit to a good instructor would help.
 
vapoolplayer said:
I'd still stick with shooting balls in the corner to make sure your stroke is true. If you're not making like 95/100 straight in shots, and likely 98/100, you should probably look for some inconsistency there.

*** Business card drill***
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Thanks for this bit of advice here. I will be trying this tonight.

As for the instructor bit I've thought about it but I'm not sure where to start for help. I'm in the Cincinnati area. How much does something like this typically cost?
 
Your business card idea reminds me of Bert's 60 minute workout for 8 ball and 9 ball.

My home table is worn from the mighty x drill and has clear hole strengtheners all over it for different drills and shots I practice. I've been putting in about 2 hours a day the last month or so trying to get back into the game. I'm playing on a GC with 4 1/8" pockets and still can't beat the ghost but I can get out about 40% of the time. That's up from 20% a month ago so I'm happy with my progress. I hope to be back to speed by June.
You can clearly see many of the drills I do by looking at the wear marks on my table.
I met Niels Feijen at a tourney a bunch of years ago and told him we had the same instructor. His reply was short and to the point, "Do the drills!".
 
Agreed... there is no holy grail. 25 years ago when I first worked with Hal Mix (Hal coached Nick Varner, Kim Davenport, Robin Bell, etc.) the first thing he told me was "Rob, everyone is looking for the secret... the secret is there is no ****ing secret"

With that being said it seems that many on AZ are opposed to the quest for knowledge, viewing all information, systems, products, etc as gimmicks.
Willie Mosconi wrote books, put his name on products and made money... nearly every professional player has.

I've been working with CTE/Pro 1... I paid my money for the DVD, invested the time and it has helped my game. I am happy with my purchase and I believe that since Stan put years into this system he deserves to be paid for his information and hard work.

I've watched CJ Wiley's TOI Video - I think its an interesting system
especially for all the AZ'ers who complain about bar box conditions - it allows you to hit the balls at a somewhat harder consistent speed while getting shape and takes much of the table roll out of the game. (this is my personal assessment)

Even Willie Mosconi had his detractors back in the day - I have a copy of one of his books where he throws in this disclaimer prior to discussing his parallel aiming system "Before the purists begin to howl" - in other words his aiming system teaching was apparently controversial in his time.

If I ever get to the point where I'm unteachable, think I know it all and stop seeking knowledge it will be time to quit. (that will never happen;))
 
WhatRobEats said:
I've been playing off an on for about 10 years. I've had a table in my basement for the last 2 years. For the past 6 months I've been taking the game very seriously and practicing for the 2 or 3 hours mentioned above.

I start by shooting about 100 balls into the corner pockets from the foot spot to work on my stroke and keep it consistent. After that I will play a couple of games of FARGO. After those few games I sit down on the couch and take a break for about 20 minutes then I start playing 9 ball. Each time I miss I give a progressing number of balls to the ghost. I start with 1 ball and so on. To me it's a good game to play alone to work on position play.

When I've had enough 9 ball I'll throw balls on the table and just shoot them out in no particular order, or I will work on bank shots and kicks.

If there are any particular drills that you or anyone else is willing to advise to me I will most certainly do anything else to get better.
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Just a couple of thoughts: first off, I think someone can get very good shooting shots into the corner pockets with all kinds of strokes. IOW, I'm not so sure your current regime is indicative of what you think it is.

If you want to improve, what I believe is important is discovering the patterns within your own game. Does your draw shot come straight back, or does it go off to the side a bit? Follow shot? Does your stop shot actually stop, or does it dribble off a little? How about shooting off a rail -- any woes there? Do you have trouble shooting to the left corner pocket more than the right? Does your CB consistently come up short on the same position play? Is the angle you expect on any given shot shorter or wider than you predicted?

I think paying atttention to stuff like that and then figuring out why what happened happened is how you get better. Was it a lack of knowledge (the science)? Was it a lack of understanding? Was it bad technique? Or was it just bad judgement? Those are the things every player must figure out within their own game.

I know at the start it can be overwhelming. But if you give it time (and pay attention) the patterns will emerge. And then, when you start to recognize the patterns, and start to tackle them one by one, that's when you'll start to become a better pool player.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Just a couple of thoughts: first off, I think someone can get very good shooting shots into the corner pockets with all kinds of strokes. IOW, I'm not so sure your current regime is indicative of what you think it is.

If you want to improve, what I believe is important is discovering the patterns within your own game. Does your draw shot come straight back, or does it go off to the side a bit? Follow shot? Does your stop shot actually stop, or does it dribble off a little? How about shooting off a rail -- any woes there? Do you have trouble shooting to the left corner pocket more than the right? Does your CB consistently come up short on the same position play? Is the angle you expect on any given shot shorter or wider than you predicted?

I think paying atttention to stuff like that and then figuring out why what happened happened is how you get better. Was it a lack of knowledge (the science)? Was it a lack of understanding? Was it bad technique? Or was it just bad judgement? Those are the things every player must figure out within their own game.

I know at the start it can be overwhelming. But if you give it time (and pay attention) the patterns will emerge. And then, when you start to recognize the patterns, and start to tackle them one by one, that's when you'll start to become a better pool player.

Lou Figueroa
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Thanks Lou! These are all really good things for me to think about as I'm playing. Let me see if I can answer a few of these questions off the bat.

Does your draw shot come straight back, or does it go off to the side a bit? Usually slides off to the left.

Follow shot? Same usually to the left.

Stop cue ball? Yes generally I do not have an issue with that. Maybe a slight roll forward or back but mere inch or so.

Does your CB consistently come up short on the same position play? No, I generally hit the ball much harder than I need to.

Is the angle you expect on any given shot shorter or wider than you predicted? Generally shorter. I hit rails early usually.
 
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