no smoking as of 4-15... ways to get around?

[catscradle]

The point I am trying to make here is this....in the past, you had a choice as to if you wanted to frequent an establishment that allowed smoking or not. But, on the same token, no one gets to choose if someone climbs behind the wheel after drinking all night, and kills or maims someone. Fact is, you are more likely to be taken out by a drunk driver, than you are by being exposed to 'secondhand smoke' a few hours a week....
Lisa

You keep bringing up drunk drivers. What in god's name have they to do with this discussion. It is against the law to drive drunk and if people do it everybody clearly agree it's wrong. Nobody condones drunk driving and at the same time wants to impose a smoking ban. People shouldn't drive drunk and it has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion.
Smokers DO NOT have a "RIGHT" to smoke period. There is nothing in the constitution like you allude to. Neither does anybody have the right to say you cannot smoke except in regards to their own private property; or in regards to public property if the entity telling you not to smoke is the government.
Whether or not smoking can be banned in a private establishment by the government is the only argument worthy of any discussion. I think the legal standing for it is that since the government controls licensing of establishments then they have the right to set conditions on that license. I'm not sure whether or not I agree with that reasoning, but at least it is an argument that makes some logical sense. The problem is if the government doesn't have the right to ban smoking, do they have the right to ban anything from 4 year olds driving, to people shooting up with heroin at will.
It is a very dicey argument, but it has nothing to do with drunk drivers or smoker's "rights".

 

[hippiepool]

private smoking club ...

whats next ? crack smoking area ? i mean , let's not leave the crackheads out folks ! just because someone chooses to smoke doesn't give them the right to take away oxygen from people who still have some common sense.

maybe the parking lots of certain establishments could be reconfigured to include a pot smoking area , cigar and cigarette area , and maybe a little crack head section with an old couch over by the dumpster...

 

[pete-biker]

The only legit argument against smoking bans is the question as to whether or not the room owner's rights are being violated.

That's it, very clearly and simply said.

A lot of people get emotional when talking about smoking and smoking bans, clearly visible even in this thread. Let's just keep in mind, that there has not been a law banning owners to ban smoking if they feel like that.

Mostly it all comes to customers; if one wants to play, have a drink and smoke that should be allowed as well as the non-smoking place..if that can't happen in one place then it must be the owners choice to decide is his /hers place w/wo smoke. And after that customers vote by either going in there or staying away.

 

[smittie1984]

I dont see why I or any other non-smoker should have to do go to another pool hall or bowling alley because we do not feel like breathing in smoke.

That is because we are still a capitalist system. No one has the right to harm you. Yes. That is true. But you can also use your mind that God or Darwin gave you and decide to go somewhere else. If you do this more smoke-free pool halls will open up becuase it will be profitable.

Let me give you an example.

Where I live I have 2 good pool halls that are within a 30-45minute drive from me.

1. Mr. Cues 2. (Smoking)
2. The Pool Room 2. (non-smoking)

Every Thursday I play league at Mr. Cues 2. I enjoy going there. But before I go there if I get off fairly early from installing a pool table into someones smokey death chamber I go to The Pool Room 2. (Maybe the government should ban smoking in your own home because I have no choice but to go in there) A place where I have to pay to play compared to Cues 2 which has free pool for leauge players. I normally buy food from there because it is not too expensive and good. Compared to Cues 2. It is smoke free and a nicer atmosphere. Compared to the mullet sporting sleeveless regulars I find at Cues 2.

That thursday night Cues 2 made $8 off of me. The pool room 2 made $10-20 in table time. Plus a couple of bucks for a break stick. $8 in food and drink. Plus the waitress' tip. Sometimes a couple of bucks in the juke box.

What happend there is non-smokers not wanting to be around smokers will spend more money to be away from smokers. Other pool halls seeing this will start becoming smoke free to grab the better paying customers. Then when more smoke free pool halls open up the smoke free pool halls will be in competition with each other. And prices will drop.

The government should not regulate where you can and can't smoke unless it is on government property where people have no choice but to be there because by not being there their only other option is looking down the barrel of a gun from the government.

 

[Gregg]

This is the second MB I frequent with this active debate.

Personally, I am glad that I can shoot smoke free in my pool hall that has poor ventilation and an abundance of chain smokers here in NJ.

Even smokers complain about it; Imagine playing in a room the size of a broom closet with five chain smokers. That's how bad it is, with a cloud of smoke above the ceiling all night. I used to put on some nice clothes to go out, and used to have to pull something dirty out of the hamper. I would shower that night when I got home, even after I showered before leaving, to prevent waking up with a headache from my hair and skin reeking from smoke.

Anyway, I think that people who debate against this are hanging onto this "debate" are going to look back and see what a farce their debate was, be it lack of business from smokers, smokers rights, whatever you come up with. I have been to many bars that have the laws enforce in NY, CT, and DE and let me tell you it's wonderful to be able to eat a meal without someone blowing smoke in your face. It's nice to see NJ folling some of the more progressive states, now only if PA can get on baord, and they are trying...

 

[Snapshot9]

Regulation

Government regulation of private rights and choices never works. You're talking about a givernement that spends millions of dollars on stupid funding of grants for studying something that has absolutely NO value to society in general. Or even Mars probes that will in no way benefit us in the future because it is simply too far away, and they already know noone could survive there, but they still do it.

I can just see the flashing red lights as 2-3 squad cars move in on some guy running down the street with a cigarette in his mouth to arrest him, protecting society from this dangerous criminal. Sitting in a dim cold damp
concrete room with a little cage over his head, and the two sliding little
doors raise to let the rats bore into his cheeks (justice for smoking) in order
to get the names of the other fellow smokers he huddles with in the dark of night. I am sure George Orwell would approve.

 

[degenrat]

it's that kind of over exxageration that Loses the arguement for smokers. Smoke kills people. There are not enough non smoking places to make the nonsmoker safe. At what point do any of you think peoples health should be a factor?

You say choose where you go as an ioption. how many non smoking pool leagues are out there? how many NS pool halls? bars? The govt needs to step in. I agree it sucks for smokers. but if you don't think it has been unfair and dangerous for nonsmokers for a long time, then you are just being selfish and/or ignorant.

 

[degenrat]

Just a couple of other points. To my knowledge, ou are not qualified to make a statement about the validity of space research.

And to someone earlier, trying to draw parallels between your right to smoke and a mother's right to choose is insulting.

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

good point about the government.. i never really thought about it like that...

 

[pooltchr]

You say choose where you go as an ioption. how many non smoking pool leagues are out there? how many NS pool halls? bars? The govt needs to step in. I agree it sucks for smokers. but if you don't think it has been unfair and dangerous for nonsmokers for a long time, then you are just being selfish and/or ignorant.

If there were enough people who wanted a non smoking league, wouldn't you think some smart business person would start one?
Why does the government need to get involved at all? If the demand were that great, ns bars and pool rooms would already exist. That is how free enteprise works. With enough demand, the supply will happen. What is happening now is the government forcing private business to do things that may not be the best business decision for them. It's just one more instance of government creating laws that aren't needed.
If non smoking bars are such a good idea, there would already be plenty of them around.
Free enterprise works. Government regulations usually don't.
And why are casinos exempt from the new regulations?????????????????
Steve

 

[macguy]

If there were enough people who wanted a non smoking league, wouldn't you think some smart business person would start one?
Why does the government need to get involved at all? If the demand were that great, ns bars and pool rooms would already exist. That is how free enteprise works. With enough demand, the supply will happen. What is happening now is the government forcing private business to do things that may not be the best business decision for them. It's just one more instance of government creating laws that aren't needed.
If non smoking bars are such a good idea, there would already be plenty of them around.
Free enterprise works. Government regulations usually don't.
And why are casinos exempt from the new regulations?????????????????
Steve

Casinos are not exempt, they are just allowed a smoking area. They have a strong lobby and got a small exemption. You are not going to find anybody smoking in the restaurants or bars in the casinos.

 

[smittie1984]

There is a smoke free league near me. You can't get a table there when they have it. Nor any service because the bar maids are at full capacity getting good food and good drinks. Even the Snooker and Carom tables always have someone on it.

Friday nights the place is slammed with a Poker tournament. Along with their tables.

Even though the pool hall is not 18 and up so he can't allow smokers in the place. He would still do well no matter what.

There is demand for non-smoking pool rooms. I just don't want the government quinching my thirst for one.

 

[Flex]

And to someone earlier, trying to draw parallels between your right to smoke and a mother's right to choose is insulting.

Mr. or Ms. Degenrat (is that supposed to sound like degenerate?)

When you refer to "a mother's right to choose" it appears you are referring to choosing abortion, the direct killing of an innocent human being in existence in the mother's womb. If you are insulted by the fact that I am pro-life, and very active in helping mothers bring their unborn baby to see the light of day, that's your problem.

As for those mothers who have unfortunately aborted one or more of their children, and I have many friends who made that decision, and are sorry they did so, and are very active today helping mothers sort out their choices and to choose life, it would probably do you good to hear of the pain and psychological trauma they went through, and in some cases still go through today.

I know what they have told me about abortion, and how there are always two victims of it: the mother and the child. Why can't we love them both?

Flex

 

[Secaucus Fats]

If there were enough people who wanted a non smoking league, wouldn't you think some smart business person would start one?
Why does the government need to get involved at all? If the demand were that great, ns bars and pool rooms would already exist. That is how free enteprise works. With enough demand, the supply will happen. What is happening now is the government forcing private business to do things that may not be the best business decision for them. It's just one more instance of government creating laws that aren't needed.
If non smoking bars are such a good idea, there would already be plenty of them around.
Free enterprise works. Government regulations usually don't.

I agree with you 100%.

And why are casinos exempt from the new regulations?????????????????

We all know the answer. They have all the money they need to pay off the right politicians. There's nothing like greasing a palm to fix a potential problem. Of course, small businesses can't afford the protection payments so they wind up getting screwed..

Steve

Here is a quote from an article by Walter E. Williams over at Townhall.com: (BTW the author points out how our dietary habits are next in line for state control.)

"The anti-smoking zealots started out with "reasonable" demands, such as warning labels on cigarette packs and no smoking sections on airplanes. They made exaggerated claims about the cost that smokers were imposing on the health care system. Then cigarette manufacturers faced multimillion-dollar lawsuits and multibillion-dollar local, state and federal extortion, not to mention confiscatory taxes, all of which are passed on to smokers in the form of higher prices.

Just recently, the City of Calabasas, Calif., adopted an ordinance that bans smoking in virtually all outdoor areas. Partial justification is to protect children from bad influences -- seeing adults smoking. Had the anti-smoking zealots revealed their entire agenda back in the '60s and '70s, they wouldn't have gotten much. By using the piecemeal approach, they've been successful beyond their dreams,"

The entire text of the article is available here: http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/03/22/190625.html

You see, that's how marxism has always worked and continues to work to this day. Anyone who tells me communism (marxism) fell with the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the USSR is a fool.

Just take a look around right here in the USA and tell me marxism is dead.

C. S. Lewis wrote:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

 

[rackmsuckr]

And why are casinos exempt from the new regulations?????????????????
Steve

At least up here in WA, the reason some casinos are exempt from the no-smoking law is because they are owned by Native Americans, and they make a bundle by selling cigarettes, so their casinos are protected, while private casinos are not.

 

[nfty9er]

Where did you get that idea?

Casinos are not exempt, they are just allowed a smoking area. They have a strong lobby and got a small exemption. You are not going to find anybody smoking in the restaurants or bars in the casinos.

The casino floor , or gambling areas of casinos are exempt. Where do you think most all the bars and restaruants are? Duh! On the casino floors. Plus they will count the restaurants and bars as gambling areas(video poker and keno) so I would say it was a huge exemption.

 

[pooltchr]

So I guess that means that the state of NJ feels that the health of customers and employees of small businesses is more important than those who frequent or work in the big casinos. If the health of others was the real reason for the law, the casinos wouldn't have been able to get a pass.
Whenever a politician tells you they are doing something for your own good, you can just about bet they are doing it for THEIR own good.
Steve

 

[MacGyver]

If there were enough people who wanted a non smoking league, wouldn't you think some smart business person would start one?
Why does the government need to get involved at all? If the demand were that great, ns bars and pool rooms would already exist. That is how free enteprise works. With enough demand, the supply will happen. What is happening now is the government forcing private business to do things that may not be the best business decision for them. It's just one more instance of government creating laws that aren't needed.
If non smoking bars are such a good idea, there would already be plenty of them around.
Free enterprise works. Government regulations usually don't.
And why are casinos exempt from the new regulations?????????????????
Steve

This has got to be the most stupid argument that is actually popular.

Read a freaking history book or use some common sense. Do things like child labor, completely unsafe work places, toxic waste dumpage into our water supply, unsafe transportation of hazardous materials, too small wages to even live on, controlling the market as a monopoly, etc etc sound like a good idea?

If we simply go with "whatever the demand is" and making "the best buisness decision", then that extra penny you can save gets put above people's rights.

There are a reason we have laws that govern our society, if we throw them out the window and just do "whatever the best buisness decision is", then we are going to live in a very very sad unfair place.

You know, chopping off kids limbs in order to get their fellow slaves to mine diamonds faster might be a smart "buisness decision"(or any number of atrocities commited for the "bottom line") but I'd hate to work for you if thats how you feel things should be handled!!!!!!

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

wow...

i definitely never meant this thread to arouse such a debate! but it is healthy...

people have made very valid points and are very passionate about what they talk about... however it is their opinion and does not have to be shared and we should remember that...

can ANYONE answer my question about becoming a private club an if it is possible?

-melissa <-- pro-choice, but meaning agreeing with your right to make a decision and have your own opinion... in no way agreeing one way or another with pro-life or choice...

 

[Secaucus Fats]

i definitely never meant this thread to arouse such a debate! but it is healthy...

people have made very valid points and are very passionate about what they talk about... however it is their opinion and does not have to be shared and we should remember that...

can ANYONE answer my question about becoming a private club an if it is possible?

-melissa <-- pro-choice, but meaning agreeing with your right to make a decision and have your own opinion... in no way agreeing one way or another with pro-life or choice...

If a private club has any employees then it must comply with the ban.