Not To Beat A Dead Elephant

Between '79 and '89 the elephant population decreased by 50% in Africa because of poaching. That's sad... To kill an animal to eat and feed yourself/family is one thing, but to kill it only for it's ivory or fur is pretty lame.
 
cleary said:
Between '79 and '89 the elephant population decreased by 50% in Africa because of poaching. That's sad... To kill an animal to eat and feed yourself/family is one thing, but to kill it only for it's ivory or fur is pretty lame.
Click to expand...

Not as lame as bragging about it.

Sent from my LG-P500 using Tapatalk
 
MJB said:
Fatboy,

I mean, just show me something...anything....besides "you've been to Africa and you know there's a lot of elephants."
Click to expand...

I'm not Fatboy but...

If you are shown something... anything... what will you do??? What will anyone do? That's not meant to sound like a challenge, but I did the research a decade ago after Thomas Wayne declared that herd management and cutting off funds to that management has led to the demise. Poachers are going to poach.

Areas in south Africa (and South Africa) have reported increases in population for years.

This is just ONE site. Zimbabwe. 100,000 elephants and growing. They need to CULL the herd due to over-population.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/222819/zimbabwe-sell-ivory-fund-elephant-culling


Here's another southern Africa culling project discussion due to TOO MANY elephants:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1105_041105_elephants_2.html



I just can't buy that every conservation organization is full of shit and that it's unture (or untrue) that elephants aren't in danger.
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They ARE in danger. But the biggest danger has been human encroachment

http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/23.pdf

If we are to believe this proposal from a decade plus ago, herd management works (Just look at Kruger Park and southern Africa in general).

But if funding for management is cut off and elephant ivory stockpiles aren't allowed to be sold for funding such management, then there is no money to fund and the elephants will die off.

I'd like the conservationists to look at what work and what doesn't work and then do something about it.

Freddie <~~~ illegal poaching still happens, and I'm not arguing against that
 
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Hey Fatboy,

We agree on a lot of stuff, especially in NPR, but this just happens to not be one of them.

The elephant population has shrunk to less than half a million in Africa and Asia. It's the largest land animal on the planet, and quite a majestic creature. Very intelligent creatures even though they are afraid of mice (it's true).

They are very expressive creatures. They show joy, anger, grief, compassion, love. Elephants, unlike many animals, are VERY emotionally attached toward other family members, almost on par with humans. A mother elephant protects her "child" at all costs and never lets it out of her sight, and that loving bond lasts 50 years.

Elephants also mourn their loved ones. They go through quite a grieving process that sometimes takes years. Elephants NEVER forget where their loved ones died, and will respect the area for life. They will even touch the old bones left behind for a few minutes as to paying some type of "tribute"....

Even as the elder ones die, the younger elephants will comfort the dying elder until death by stroking their feet, and lying next to them. Basically, they don't let them die alone... truly inspiring if you ask me... The sad part about marriage is that one of us may die alone, so part of me hopes my wife dies first so I can be there for her when her time comes....

There are numerous documentation about elephants trying to help other species, in one instance, a baby rhino was stuck in the mud. The elephant was trying to push the baby rhino to safety, though the momma rhino kept charging and attacking the elephant. But the elephant would not give up. The elephant was risking her life for an animal not related to her, nor from her own species.....

Elephant herds will not abandon their own. If an elephant is sick or has a gimp leg, it will slow the entire herd so the sick elephant can keep up. Family is important to them as it is to us.

So, I really cannot believe in my hearts of hearts that someone, anyone could really enjoy killing an elephant. They are slaughtered only because folks want to make jewelry out of ivory... which can be made out of a million other things. And in most cases are..... but some folks don't want to change their "traditions" for whatever reasons.

Others are slaughtered due to African hunting expeditions, which means they are being killed for "shits and giggles"... Most folks do NOT eat elephant...

There was a famous "shark hunter" that killed thousands of sharks, until one day, a group of scientists took him out for a week to see what they "do". They study the shark but tracking them, taking photos, studying how they eat, when they eat, what they eat...where they mate, where they feed, etc. etc.

The old shark hunter never knew how truly interesting sharks were, and was fascinated with the week trip, and NOT one shark was killed in the process. Rather than try and "force" their opinion on him, they just invited him out to see for his own eyes, no strings attached. He swore from that day on to never kill another shark, and staring a sight seeing shark tour.......

Oh well, didn't mean to bore you, but you are one smart dude, and thought you might want to see another angle..... African safari trips with out the "kills" are just as popular and as those where elephants are killed in the process..... Ok, I'll get off my soap box !!
 
I feel in some way I must apologize for my knee jerk reaction to, what seemed a very bleak outlook portrayed by what I've long considered one of the finest reporting agencies on the planet. I do not have a desire to draw attention to anything but the downside of ivory attractiveness. I was hoping to get responses about the percentage of use in cue sports as well as understanding how these incidents affect our sport and what, if anything, we might do in the future to help (if help is needed). All responses that bring clarity to the connection we share are appreciated, positive or negative. Perspectives can be altered by experience. That to me is what makes this forum so valuable.
 
Fatboy said:
the indusrty and CITIES work closely together doing game density counts in most countries (unless there is a war-congo etc) > the Sarfari club interantional and CITIES and Parks dept's of the various safari countries where hunting is active and poaching too share notes and the quotas are established every year and they are adheared to by safari operators 90% of the time, there some with bad ethics.

What ppl fail to realize is Safari is the biggest Forex(thats $$$ incase you didnt know) source for some sub Saharan countries . they dont cut down the tree to get the top apple. so they damn sure make sure that there will be game for the next 5,10,20,??? years. Thats why quotas are changed every year, every tusk I have has a serial # on it weight where it was harvested and year. thats CITIES enforcing the quotas, the countries get big $$ for permits to shoot bull Jumbos, less for cows and $0 for PAC problem animal control jumbos.

there are lots of eyes on the crop(for lack of a better word) of game, nobody wants there to a shortage, I know people who been in the biz(hunting and photo safari for over 50 years), I damn near got in the biz nad am considering it again. its heavily regulated because they want to be sure they can hunt again next year its a industry, just like a bar, they toss the customers out when the state says to, or in Nv they dont as boozeis 24 hrous, in Ca its 2am, and bar owners toss everyone then so they can open again tomaro, same thing in the safari INDUSTRY,


if you want to know more about game counts, quotas, and REAL information not american TV propanganda. Use the google CITIES, SCI, and other sites will give you lots of information, if you really give a shit do what I do and go to the SCI convention and go to the workshops about quotas, anti poaching efforet and see how they are funded(did ya know that?)


im really sick of this
Click to expand...

Not as sick as I am, believe me.

SCI is a lobby group for hunters, but even they can't put a good spin on elephant hunting, so sure they're gonna throw some money towards anti-poaching. Good PR move.

CITES does give a lot of information on elephants.....but none of it seems to support that the African elephant population is "doin' real good." The other thing I notice about CITES is that they're kinda like the UN (or United Nations). They have member countries, those member countries agree to go along with CITES decisions, and some of the member countries are douche bags. But CITES doesn't have much power aside from recommending that their member countries impose trade sanctions on the douche bag country. It's not like CITES can take them to the desert and blow them up with big guns.

Like I said before, all I've got is the internet for research. I haven't been to Africa to see how it really is.
 
1ab said:
I feel in some way I must apologize for my knee jerk reaction to, what seemed a very bleak outlook portrayed by what I've long considered one of the finest reporting agencies on the planet. I do not have a desire to draw attention to anything but the downside of ivory attractiveness. I was hoping to get responses about the percentage of use in cue sports as well as understanding how these incidents affect our sport and what, if anything, we might do in the future to help (if help is needed). All responses that bring clarity to the connection we share are appreciated, positive or negative. Perspectives can be altered by experience. That to me is what makes this forum so valuable.
Click to expand...

Some guys will say that ivory use in pool cues amounts to a drop in the bucket for the total use of ivory. They're right. One full tusk is probably enough for a builder to make a lifetime of cues. And all or most of the ivory the pool industry use is probably legal pre-ban. My opinion is that I'd like to see ivory demand in every form go away. Even the demand that only hurts a little.
 
Cornerman said:
I'm not Fatboy but...

If you are shown something... anything... what will you do??? What will anyone do? That's not meant to sound like a challenge, but I did the research a decade ago after Thomas Wayne declared that herd management and cutting off funds to that management has led to the demise. Poachers are going to poach.

Areas in south Africa (and South Africa) have reported increases in population for years.

This is just ONE site. Zimbabwe. 100,000 elephants and growing. They need to CULL the herd due to over-population.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/222819/zimbabwe-sell-ivory-fund-elephant-culling


Here's another southern Africa culling project discussion due to TOO MANY elephants:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1105_041105_elephants_2.html



They ARE in danger. But the biggest danger has been human encroachment

http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/23.pdf

If we are to believe this proposal from a decade plus ago, herd management works (Just look at Kruger Park and southern Africa in general).

But if funding for management is cut off and elephant ivory stockpiles aren't allowed to be sold for funding such management, then there is no money to fund and the elephants will die off.

I'd like the conservationists to look at what work and what doesn't work and then do something about it.

Freddie <~~~ illegal poaching still happens, and I'm not arguing against that
Click to expand...

Not disputing your articles, but you're talking about 2 countries (Zimbabwe and South Africa) out of a CONTINENT.

Gotta try looking at the big picture.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Hey Fatboy,

We agree on a lot of stuff, especially in NPR, but this just happens to not be one of them.

The elephant population has shrunk to less than half a million in Africa and Asia. It's the largest land animal on the planet, and quite a majestic creature. Very intelligent creatures even though they are afraid of mice (it's true).

They are very expressive creatures. They show joy, anger, grief, compassion, love. Elephants, unlike many animals, are VERY emotionally attached toward other family members, almost on par with humans. A mother elephant protects her "child" at all costs and never lets it out of her sight, and that loving bond lasts 50 years.

Elephants also mourn their loved ones. They go through quite a grieving process that sometimes takes years. Elephants NEVER forget where their loved ones died, and will respect the area for life. They will even touch the old bones left behind for a few minutes as to paying some type of "tribute"....

Even as the elder ones die, the younger elephants will comfort the dying elder until death by stroking their feet, and lying next to them. Basically, they don't let them die alone... truly inspiring if you ask me... The sad part about marriage is that one of us may die alone, so part of me hopes my wife dies first so I can be there for her when her time comes....

There are numerous documentation about elephants trying to help other species, in one instance, a baby rhino was stuck in the mud. The elephant was trying to push the baby rhino to safety, though the momma rhino kept charging and attacking the elephant. But the elephant would not give up. The elephant was risking her life for an animal not related to her, nor from her own species.....

Elephant herds will not abandon their own. If an elephant is sick or has a gimp leg, it will slow the entire herd so the sick elephant can keep up. Family is important to them as it is to us.

So, I really cannot believe in my hearts of hearts that someone, anyone could really enjoy killing an elephant. They are slaughtered only because folks want to make jewelry out of ivory... which can be made out of a million other things. And in most cases are..... but some folks don't want to change their "traditions" for whatever reasons.

Others are slaughtered due to African hunting expeditions, which means they are being killed for "shits and giggles"... Most folks do NOT eat elephant...

There was a famous "shark hunter" that killed thousands of sharks, until one day, a group of scientists took him out for a week to see what they "do". They study the shark but tracking them, taking photos, studying how they eat, when they eat, what they eat...where they mate, where they feed, etc. etc.

The old shark hunter never knew how truly interesting sharks were, and was fascinated with the week trip, and NOT one shark was killed in the process. Rather than try and "force" their opinion on him, they just invited him out to see for his own eyes, no strings attached. He swore from that day on to never kill another shark, and staring a sight seeing shark tour.......

Oh well, didn't mean to bore you, but you are one smart dude, and thought you might want to see another angle..... African safari trips with out the "kills" are just as popular and as those where elephants are killed in the process..... Ok, I'll get off my soap box

Sent from my LG-P500 using Tapatalk

They may or may not be afraid of mice, but they certainly have long memories, with wisdom being passed down through the generations about where to find food and water during times of hunger/drought. Losing this collective knowledge is disastrous. But people will only hear what they want to hear and it's amazing what a rich person will be told.
Click to expand...
 
MJB said:
Not disputing your articles, but you're talking about 2 countries (Zimbabwe and South Africa) out of a CONTINENT.

Gotta try looking at the big picture.
Click to expand...

You need to actually read the articles so that YOU can get the big picture.

I've put up a good thread; it deserves full reading.

Your signature has a nice joke on irony. Then you understand irony. Please read the articles and my post. If you truly value the elephant and you truly wanted Fatboy to show you some article, then please read it.

Freddie
 
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Cornerman said:
I'm not Fatboy but...

If you are shown something... anything... what will you do??? What will anyone do? That's not meant to sound like a challenge, but I did the research a decade ago after Thomas Wayne declared that herd management and cutting off funds to that management has led to the demise. Poachers are going to poach.

Areas in south Africa (and South Africa) have reported increases in population for years.

This is just ONE site. Zimbabwe. 100,000 elephants and growing. They need to CULL the herd due to over-population.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/222819/zimbabwe-sell-ivory-fund-elephant-culling


Here's another southern Africa culling project discussion due to TOO MANY elephants:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1105_041105_elephants_2.html



They ARE in danger. But the biggest danger has been human encroachment

http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/23.pdf

If we are to believe this proposal from a decade plus ago, herd management works (Just look at Kruger Park and southern Africa in general).

But if funding for management is cut off and elephant ivory stockpiles aren't allowed to be sold for funding such management, then there is no money to fund and the elephants will die off.

I'd like the conservationists to look at what work and what doesn't work and then do something about it.

Freddie <~~~ illegal poaching still happens, and I'm not arguing against that
Click to expand...


thank goodnes you not me lol, the backache is brutal.

notice its not american media your quoting?

thanks for the links

best
eric:)


and yes killing illegal poachers is legal and a good thing, in Zim. there are lots there because there are more rhino there than most spots.
 
Cornerman said:
You need to actually read the articles so that YOU can get the big picture.

I've put up a good thread; it deserves full reading.

Your signature has a nice joke on irony. Then you understand irony. Please read the articles and my post. If you truly value the elephant and you truly wanted Fatboy to show you some article, then please read it.

Freddie
Click to expand...

You need some fresh material. Here's a recent article from Nat Geo that puts the entire African elephant population into perspective. I thought I understood irony....not sure where you were going with your post though.


http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/31/time-running-out-to-save-elephants-from-ivory-trade/
 
MJB said:
Here's the CITES document from the 3rd Elephant Meeting in 2010....not a decade plus ago. The good stuff starts on page 6. Is that irony?

http://www.cites.org/eng/prog/mike/reg_meet/aem3/EN-E15i-68%20African%20elephant%20action%20plan.pdf
Click to expand...

Great link. It strengthens my position.

I will summarize:

Learn what the successful herd management management States are doing well and share it across to the other African States.

Fund this activity .

Increase policing of illegal killing and illegal trade (poachers shoot back, so my hat's off to the enforcers).

Thanks for strengthening my point.

Freddie
 
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