Now the John vs. Lou poll removed

[JB Cases]

And by the way,i saw your post ... my son along with a lot of other folks in the world are mildly mentally impaired. We don't call it "retarded" anymore... Only people who are vastly uninformed on the subject use those crude schoolyard terms. He has an IQ less than 60, and can out work a lot of men i know. He's not a savant or anything like that and from speaking to him you would't know there is anything wrong with him. But i'm sure we could think up a couple mental or physical games he could challenge you at that would make you look "retarded"

Mental retardation is a medical term that is still very much in use. When used clinically and not derogatorily it is perfectly acceptable.

Like Gifted and Talented however it simply means above or below the average. I like the term developmentally delayed because as I said earlier studies are now showing that some kids just learn slower but they eventually catch up and often pass the fast kids in deep understanding and mastery of the material.

Just as your son is fully capable in some areas where no one would have a clue that his IQ is 60 there are people who are perceived to be incapable of improving in pool who could very well improve greatly given the desire and opportunity to deeply practice.

Has your son reached his full potential? I doubt it. I doubt anyone even knows what that is.

 

[Birriards]

I would say there are not one but several you put in Shane's hours that obviously not Shane's ability ,, I have already given you examples of other sports where that was just not the case I'm sure pool is no exception

Also as pertaining to your game name me a player your age in any sport that jumped up several levels ,, there is a reason they say you can't teach a old dog new tricks


1

Your example of people that put in the hours but didn't have the ability were Shaq, who is a top 3 center in the history of organized basketball, Vijay Singh, who was the number 1 golfer in the world for 32 weeks and a hall of famer, and Tim Tebow, who has won 2 CFB national championships, a heisman trophy and an NFL playoff game.

The only example that is even close is Tebow and that is if you look at the smallest pool possible.

Still not getting your point.

 

[JB Cases]

Then give them another year and the "natural" will probably be another two years ahead. Rinse and repeat for a decade.

I admire your tenacity in this case, but the difference between learning on the fly during the match is a bit out there. Identical moves may not come up and it tends to be more difficult to incorporate new ideas rather than those that are already practiced and known.

As for this match between yourself and Lou, I hope it's a good one..

I have no idea how you play, but I certainly wouldn't expect a weak player to cash repeatedly in strong tournaments. I'm humbled on a regular basis by players that have cashed. Then again, I'm also in pool bfe here in Portland.

That's the theory but the studies show otherwise.

They show that the "natural" is often passed up by the hard worker and even if both work equally hard they both eventually reach the same level. Studies show that those who are considered naturals actually put in far more time than their peers at earlier ages.

The match between Lou and I will be a good one. He is a good player and I have never said otherwise. I know it's a tough game but I think I am the better player and I will continue to think that until he beats me in a real test. If I am solidly outlclassed then I will be the first one to congratulate him and admit I was wrong about my skill compared to his. If the match is close and he wins then I won't think he is better I will only think he was better for that match.

This nonsense about him being naturally better is silly though considering how much he has told us about the amount of time he has put into his game.

I know this, IF we compared game films of him at his very best and me at my very best and you all knew nothing else about either of us I am positive that most of you would think I was the more naturally talented player by far.

 

[one stroke]

Tell you what, I will take the ten Russian body builders and train them in Pool with Chinese coaches and you give the 10 Chinese golfers Bob Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and let them all play each other in 6 months and the bodybuilders will CRUSH the golfers.

I could bring a 13 year old Chinese girl to the USA and turn her loose on locals and she would destroy most players she plays. You all would scream NATURAL TALENT. But what you wouldn't know is she went from zero to monster in less than two years with proper coaching and 10+ hours a day of training.

Nice try ,, but we are talking with the same level of teaching
under those circumstances I highly doubt it

1

 

[dudlock]

What makes you think Lou is such a talent? What makes you think I am not?

I mean we go back again to the FACT that you have no idea how I play. So you think sports is the key ok then I was a professional high diver. What makes you think I don't have more natural ability than Lou ever had? Why is is hard to believe that just because I didn't go on pool vacations and win some matches against a few pros that I am not as good as Lou.

Would you agree that there are people in the United States who have never in their life been to the tournaments Lou has been to, never in their life even played any of the pros Lou has played and yet they are as good or better than Lou is?

How did these people do it?

This is what gets me the most in all these discussions, that you somehow think Lou is the better player by virtue of what????

If he is THAT much better then how could I have possibly ever won a game off him? Or two games? Oh that's right he lost on purpose to get me to bet ten years later.

But assuming that he didn't want to lose how could I have ever won even a single game if Lou is so much better than I am?

The fact is training pays off, Lou himself has said that a hundred times over. And to me it's already proven that I can hang with him on the pool table so my opinion is that if it's a natural talent thing then the fact that I was gambling with grown men at 12 should be enough to prove I have more natural talent and the fact that I am willing to learn more and more about aiming and strategy and put in the time means that I will leverage that extra natural talent to win against him.

That you assume that I possess no talent or not as much as Lou is frankly ludicrous on your part. That you can watch what Stan Shuffett teaches and conclude that it is of no benefit is equally ludicrous.

Lou in his Efren story said he played over his head an started banking like God. Well if you can watch Stan Shuffett banking balls on demand one, two, three, four and five rails at will and don't conclude that this is pretty godlike then you are either being deliberately obtuse or you don't know what world class banking skills look like.

Have you ever seen me banking balls?

No you haven't. So what makes you think I can't make all the banks Lou can and more? Nothing other than dislike because you have ZERO facts. Did I develop this skill at banking through intense repetition? At one time I did when I used to subscribe to the million balls method - same as Lou subscribes to. How about my skill now?

I developed it through the application of Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett and Ron Vitello's methods. I get compliments, applause even, for the bank shots I make and this is due to learning and practicing those methods. That's knowledge not talent.

What makes you think Lou can feather a ball better than me? Can he draw his ball better, follow it better?

What exactly can Lou Figueroa do better than me on the pool table? You don't know do you?

Yet, you allow yourself to make comments as if Lou is just way above me in skill. Maybe you should curb your assumptions.

Don't be making up more things and saying I said this or that about people and their teachings. I watched Mr. Shuffett and was very impressed. I wouldn't know how much their lessons would improve ones game unless I experienced that and applied it in a serious way. I was simply talking a bit about Archer. He didn't use coaches too much down in Twin City, GA. But now you say folks are coming to watch you burning those banks in and breaking out in applause? Right?? OOOHHH. I bet it so exciting. I can feel the aura. The atmosphere around your training facility must be overwhelming. Sort of like the pre Ali-Foreman showdown. Can I come and watch and be a part of it all and experience the energy and excitement?? Maybe I can revisit that feeling I had when I first watched you doing that chalk exhibition.

Does Lou subscribe to hard practice? You bet. That's what he's been doing for years and years. Then occasionally he tests his skills in MAJOR TOURNAMENTS against the best in the world and many times plays like God. He's training now and only spends a few minutes a week on the mb, unlike certain people I know. He's focused and so very smart. He will beat you on smarts alone if he has to.

I notice other players are beginning to circle. Older smart heads like Mr. John, The Gentleman, Henderson. Frank, The Barber Almanza. Jay, The Banker, Helfert and others. Folks who play just a shadow of how they once played, but still crave some action with you. More importantly they know a great opportunity to score is when someone like Iceberg Lou breaks someone down and gets their nose open and they start chasing that money they lost and then you can double dip them or triple dip em and really make a score. Recall what Romberg did to Weenie Beenie?? It was beautiful.

 

[JB Cases]

I would say there are not one but several that put in Shane's hours that obviously not Shane's ability ,, I have already given you examples of other sports where that was just not the case I'm sure pool is no exception

Also as pertaining to your game name me a player your age in any sport that jumped up several levels ,, there is a reason they say you can't teach a old dog new tricks


1

But in fact that's a myth as well, you can in fact learn new tricks. Older athletes are more the norm than ever before as they know more about nutrition and training. In pool you have guys like Mike Lebron winning the US Open at 54.

Ken Jennings, Okie, on here will tell you he has gotten MUCH better in the past few years due to dedicated and focused work on his game.

As for simply getting better would you think that a person could start playing pool form ZERO at age 50 and become an APA 5-7 by age 53? That's a great improvement from never having held a cue.

Why would you think that it's NOT possible for an older person to improve in pool, a game that really doesn't depend on great physical prowess?

Especially in one pocket. If a person already is a decent player why would you think that they couldn't learn the moves given good coaching and intense practice?

I am 100% certain I can take any good nine ball player over the age of 50 and within one month improve their one pocket game by two balls easily. If they were coached by a top one pocket player the their improvement would be even greater.

 

[JB Cases]

Don't be making up more things and saying I said this or that about people and their teachings. I watched Mr. Shuffett and was very impressed. I wouldn't know how much their lessons would improve ones game unless I experienced that and applied it in a serious way. I was simply talking a bit about Archer. He didn't use coaches too much down in Twin City, GA. But now you say folks are coming to watch you burning those banks in and breaking out in applause? Right?? OOOHHH. I bet it so exciting. I can feel the aura. The atmosphere around your training facility must be overwhelming. Sort of like the pre Ali-Foreman showdown. Can I come and watch and be a part of it all and experience the energy and excitement?? Maybe I can revisit that feeling I had when I first watched you doing that chalk exhibition.

Does Lou subscribe to hard practice? You bet. That's what he's been doing for years and years. Then occasionally he tests his skills in MAJOR TOURNAMENTS against the best in the world and many times plays like God. He's training now and only spends a few minutes a week on the mb, unlike certain people I know. He's focused and so very smart. He will beat you on smarts alone if he has to.

I notice other players are beginning to circle. Older smart heads like Mr. John, The Gentleman, Henderson. Frank, The Barber Almanza. Jay, The Banker, Helfert and others. Folks who play just a shadow of how they once played, but still crave some action with you. More importantly they know a great opportunity to score is when someone like Iceberg Lou breaks someone down and gets their nose open and they start chasing that money they lost and then you can double dip them or triple dip em and really make a score. Recall what Romberg did to Weenie Beenie?? It was beautiful.

Sorry I am not as old as you and don't remember matches in the 70s........

I test my skills against champions as well, by gambling against them. Let me know the next time Lou challenges a guy like Jesse Bowman to play some one hole with any spot. Oh there won't be a next time because there wasn't ever a first time and won't ever be a first time. Tell Lou to come up here and play James Walden, Joey Gray, Chip Compton, or any other pro some $50 one hole. Isn't going to happen. Couple weeks ago I played a Taiwanese pro $80 one pocket for hours. I played Jesse $600 one pocket and broke even after being up five games. Does Lou even know what $600 one pocket feels like? I beat Cliff Joyner in a race to three once in tournament does that count for you?

I would ask you to bet but I already know the answer. Cheaper to just mouth off. Anyway, if you're right you can bleat about it later. If you're wrong then I make the prediction that that you don't utter a peep after the match.

My offer still stands though for you to stake Lou to come and get money now. But we both know the answer there don't we? PM me your phone number and when I go to St. Louis next month to watch Lou practice in person I will call you to ask what you want to bet. Asking is free even if I am 100% sure the answer will be nothing.

Also, Johnny Archer started playing at 12, credits Chester Flynt for his coaching and mentoring, and went pro at 17. Want to guess how many hours he put in between 12 and 17?

 

[JB Cases]

Nice try ,, but we are talking with the same level of teaching
under those circumstances I highly doubt it

1

Oh you mean "natural ability" and a book isn't enough?

 

[RiverCity]

I have no idea how you play, but I certainly wouldn't expect a weak player to cash repeatedly in strong tournaments. I'm humbled on a regular basis by players that have cashed. Then again, I'm also in pool bfe here in Portland.

Now now.... You've got bar box action anytime you wish with the caveat of playing on the big track too.

Chuck

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Rosa's Law

Mental retardation is a medical term that is still very much in use. When used clinically and not derogatorily it is perfectly acceptable.

Like Gifted and Talented however it simply means above or below the average. I like the term developmentally delayed because as I said earlier studies are now showing that some kids just learn slower but they eventually catch up and often pass the fast kids in deep understanding and mastery of the material.

Just as your son is fully capable in some areas where no one would have a clue that his IQ is 60 there are people who are perceived to be incapable of improving in pool who could very well improve greatly given the desire and opportunity to deeply practice.

Has your son reached his full potential? I doubt it. I doubt anyone even knows what that is.

On October 5, 2010, President Obama signed legislation requiring the federal government to replace the term “mental retardation” with “intellectual disability” in many areas of government. This measure, known as Rosa’s Law, strips the terms “mental retardation” and “mentally retarded” from federal health, education, and labor policy. “Intellectual disability” or “individual with an intellectual disability” are being inserted in place of these outdated terms

 

[JB Cases]

On October 5, 2010, President Obama signed legislation requiring the federal government to replace the term “mental retardation” with “intellectual disability” in many areas of government. This measure, known as Rosa’s Law, strips the terms “mental retardation” and “mentally retarded” from federal health, education, and labor policy. “Intellectual disability” or “individual with an intellectual disability” are being inserted in place of these outdated terms

Ok. Works for me.

 

[one stroke]

But in fact that's a myth as well, you can in fact learn new tricks. Older athletes are more the norm than ever before as they know more about nutrition and training. In pool you have guys like Mike Lebron winning the US Open at 54.

Ken Jennings, Okie, on here will tell you he has gotten MUCH better in the past few years due to dedicated and focused work on his game.

As for simply getting better would you think that a person could start playing pool form ZERO at age 50 and become an APA 5-7 by age 53? That's a great improvement from never having held a cue.

Why would you think that it's NOT possible for an older person to improve in pool, a game that really doesn't depend on great physical prowess?

Especially in one pocket. If a person already is a decent player why would you think that they couldn't learn the moves given good coaching and intense practice?

I am 100% certain I can take any good nine ball player over the age of 50 and within one month improve their one pocket game by two balls easily. If they were coached by a top one pocket player the their improvement would be even greater.

There are exceptions to every rule ,, players who have already had ability can on occasion bring their game into form

I never said it was impossible I said its unlikely to get much better say a couple balls in one pocket would be a major improvement
This would be based on what your starting knowledge was and how much you played before
I have asked several instructors if they have seen a mid B player over 50 make it to a solid A and have yet to get a yes ,,


1

 

[Banks]

Also, Johnny Archer started playing at 12, credits Chester Flynt for his coaching and mentoring, and went pro at 17. Want to guess how many hours he put in between 12 and 17?

No idea, but I bet those tables were spotless!

Now now.... You've got bar box action anytime you wish with the caveat of playing on the big track too.

Chuck

I may head up to Seattle this weekend, but I'm available any day but Thursday next week. I'm not afraid to play 8b on either table! :grin: I'm learning how to play 9, too. Apparently there's defense involved in it.. who woulda thought. Hope the family is well and merry Christmas to you all.

 

[RiverCity]

I may head up to Seattle this weekend, but I'm available any day but Thursday next week. I'm not afraid to play 8b on either table! :grin: I'm learning how to play 9, too. Apparently there's defense involved in it.. who woulda thought. Hope the family is well and merry Christmas to you all.

Best defense is a strong offense. :smile: I'll hit you up early in the week.
Merry Christmas everybody.
Chuck

 

[one stroke]

Your example of people that put in the hours but didn't have the ability were Shaq, who is a top 3 center in the history of organized basketball, Vijay Singh, who was the number 1 golfer in the world for 32 weeks and a hall of famer, and Tim Tebow, who has won 2 CFB national championships, a heisman trophy and an NFL playoff game.

The only example that is even close is Tebow and that is if you look at the smallest pool possible.

Still not getting your point.

If your going to jump in like you know something follow the bouncing ball
I was talking about Shaq's free throw shooting ,, Tim's ability to just be a NFL Qb and Vijay's game compared to Tiger's all cases practice were not enough to change anything much

1

 

[justadub]

But in fact that's a myth as well, you can in fact learn new tricks. Older athletes are more the norm than ever before as they know more about nutrition and training. In pool you have guys like Mike Lebron winning the US Open at 54.

Ken Jennings, Okie, on here will tell you he has gotten MUCH better in the past few years due to dedicated and focused work on his game.

As for simply getting better would you think that a person could start playing pool form ZERO at age 50 and become an APA 5-7 by age 53? That's a great improvement from never having held a cue.

Why would you think that it's NOT possible for an older person to improve in pool, a game that really doesn't depend on great physical prowess?

Especially in one pocket. If a person already is a decent player why would you think that they couldn't learn the moves given good coaching and intense practice?

I am 100% certain I can take any good nine ball player over the age of 50 and within one month improve their one pocket game by two balls easily. If they were coached by a top one pocket player the their improvement would be even greater.

I started APA at 46, from zero, and became SL5 in about two years. Without huge time invested each day, I did try to play 4-5 days per week.

However, in the following two years, I did not increase in skill level at all, I remain SL5 today. Despite working harder at learning and actively trying to improve. What doesn't apply is that I cannot practice each day, let alone hours each day.

What all this means, I don't know. I just though that since you used the example of a 50 year old starting from ground zero in APA, I would share my real world experience.

 

[JB Cases]

I started APA at 46, from zero, and became SL5 in about two years. Without huge time invested each day, I did try to play 4-5 days per week.

However, in the following two years, I did not increase in skill level at all, I remain SL5 today. Despite working harder at learning and actively trying to improve. What doesn't apply is that I cannot practice each day, let alone hours each day.

What all this means, I don't know. I just though that since you used the example of a 50 year old starting from ground zero in APA, I would share my real world experience.

I would bet HUGE amounts - say $5000 that if you could work just five hours a week for 6 months on your game with a qualified instructor/mentor then your game would jump to a 6 and perhaps a 7 in short order.

 

[justadub]

I would bet HUGE amounts - say $5000 that if you could work just five hours a week for 6 months on your game with a qualified instructor/mentor then your game would jump to a 6 and perhaps a 7 in short order.

I don't know that I disagree with that.

I still think that there is likely a ceiling for all of us, just as there is likely room for improvement for most people.

 

[Birriards]

If your going to jump in like you know something follow the bouncing ball
I was talking about Shaq's free throw shooting ,, Tim's ability to just be a NFL Qb and Vijay's game compared to Tiger's all cases practice were not enough to change anything much

1

Tim Tebow was a starting NFL QB that won a playoff game.

Vijay Singh was the number one golfer in the world for 32 weeks (in 04-05 when Tiger was definitely playing golf) and won three major championships.

You picking out one flaw in Shaq's game is stupid. That's like picking on SVB saying he doesn't make a full table cut on the left side of the table well and saying that practice isn't enough.

Basically, your analogy still sucks.

 

[prewarhero]

This match

Does anyone know if this match will be streamed? Recorded?