Ok, Educate me here...

[Rak9up]

Turbo

i, too, wanna be educated on this matter, but still confused after reading it all.

please somebody who knows what theyre talking about explain to the rest of us..
balance point in a cue, determines where you should grip, and how long your bridge should be? or the longer the bridge the farther back on the cue i need to hold, and the balance point wont matter? or if i just want to, really really want to, hold my cue from the very end, at all times(%95), thus having a longer bridge, being tall and having long arms and all, i need a rear balanced cue? the dude is confused.
does anybody have a rear balanced cue? can i try it? how can i change the balance point on my cue? what effect should i expect? where can i try a rear balanced cue? why is there no wrap at the butt end on majority of the cues so i can just hold from there and not feel the wrap i paid $300for is useless? should i get a poison cue with the extended wrap? does the extended wrap mean that cue is rear balanced?

whew.:sorry:

Dawg is right slow down

Balance point does not determine where you grip

When you address the cueball at the point where the tip just touches the cueball your back hand or arm should be straight up and down this allows for follow through in your stroke. In other words your back hand is like a pendulum and at the point of impact it should be half way through its swing range.

If you hold the stick "normally" with just your back hand only and the tip wants to fall its forward weighted (which if your holding the very back of the cue it has to be)

The closer that you hold your cue to the balance point the less forward weight you have...if you hold the cue with your back hand and the cue balances that is a "neutral balance"

No one I know has a rear balanced cue where the tip tries to rise up from your bridge hand but they may be out there

Most all production cues covers 85% of the cue buying public. I have a friend with a wingspan of an albatross he had to have a custom cue made you might be in the same boat.

 

[dr_dave]

A stiffer shaft does not result in more squirt than a "flimsier" one. This has been shown by multiple experiments. The only thing that seems to matter much to squirt is "end mass" (the amount of weight in the first few inches of the shaft).

If anybody wanted to look into this further, I have info and resources here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Rak9up:
If you hold the stick "normally" with just your back hand only and the tip wants to fall its forward weighted

Since, as you say, all cues have balance points forward of the grip hand, I don't think that's what people mean when they say "forward weighted" or "forward balanced". I think those terms just mean "more forward than I'm used to".

The balance point on most cues is pretty uniformly somewhere near the front of the grip area (usually a couple of inches in front of it). The location of the balance point determines how the cue feels when you hold it in shooting position - how the weight we feel is distributed between our grip and our bridge hand. I know players who can tell if a cue's balance point is even an inch different from their own cue.

Balance point (or "weight distribution") is all about this feel. That feel may have something to do with the player's comfort using the cue, but it has nothing to do with how the cue physically interacts with the CB.

pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

...Balance point (or "weight distribution") is all about this feel. That feel may have something to do with the player's comfort using the cue, but it has nothing to do with how the cue physically interacts with the CB.

For what it's worth , I think you're right on. There might be and probably are some extremely minor differences, such as energy/compression efficiency perhaps (which can be affected by a lot of things), and the different moment of inertia about a players elbow might affect stroke mechanics slightly, but all-in-all, what you're saying is good and true, imo. (Not that you've been holding your breath.)

Jim

 

[dr_dave]

...Balance point (or "weight distribution") is all about this feel. That feel may have something to do with the player's comfort using the cue, but it has nothing to do with how the cue physically interacts with the CB.

For what it's worth , I think you're right on. There might be and probably are some extremely minor differences, such as energy/compression efficiency perhaps (which can be affected by a lot of things), and the different moment of inertia about a players elbow might affect stroke mechanics slightly, but all-in-all, what you're saying is good and true, imo. (Not that you've been holding your breath.)

For what it's worth, I also concur ... provided that the cues with different balance points that you might compare have the same overall weight and the same "endmass."

Regards,
Dave

 

[Rak9up]

Question

So I ask this question if you hold your cue 2 inches behind the balance point and measure the Mass by setting the tip of your cue on a digital scale and get 2 ounces of downward force at the tip (endmass)

Or if you hold the very back of your cue and get 18 ounces of downward force as measured at the tip that this downward force applied at impact doesn't effect topspin of the cueball with an open bridge?

 

[mikepage]

So I ask this question if you hold your cue 2 inches behind the balance point and measure the Mass by setting the tip of your cue on a digital scale and get 2 ounces of downward force at the tip (endmass)

Or if you hold the very back of your cue and get 18 ounces of downward force as measured at the tip that this downward force applied at impact doesn't effect topspin of the cueball with an open bridge?

Yes I think that's correct.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So I ask this question if you hold your cue 2 inches behind the balance point and measure the Mass by setting the tip of your cue on a digital scale and get 2 ounces of downward force at the tip (endmass)

Or if you hold the very back of your cue and get 18 ounces of downward force as measured at the tip that this downward force applied at impact doesn't effect topspin of the cueball with an open bridge?

You're probably looking for a second opinion, but I'll answer too: yes, it doesn't effect topspin. And, BTW, it wouldn't be anywhere near 18 ounces of downward force at the tip even if you held it at the butt cap - the majority of the weight would still be in your grip hand.

pj
chgo

 

[Rak9up]

If your hold the endcap its truely closer to 14 ounces (I have measured
many sticks

and the endmass formula does show a forward force and a SIDE FORCE in the equation....a downward weight acting on the cueball is a side force

See most people think that lengthening your stroke by grabbing further back adds to spin because you have more follow thus creating more spin.... I believe the added mass derived from holding further back also helps to impart more spin (see the endmass equation)

 

[mikepage]

If your hold the endcap its truely closer to 14 ounces (I have measured
many sticks

and the endmass formula does show a forward force and a SIDE FORCE in the equation....a downward weight acting on the cueball is a side force

See most people think that lengthening your stroke by grabbing further back adds to spin because you have more follow thus creating more spin.... I believe the added mass derived from holding further back also helps to impart more spin (see the endmass equation)

I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean by "the endmass equation" or the "endmass formula"?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If your hold the endcap its truely closer to 14 ounces [downward force at the tip] (I have measured
many sticks

I'm sure the first statement is untrue, and so I doubt the second one.

...most people think that lengthening your stroke by grabbing further back adds to spin because you have more follow thus creating more spin.... I believe the added mass derived from holding further back also helps to impart more spin (see the endmass equation)

I don't believe either one adds to spin. You're making this more complicated than it is. The physics are pretty simple.

pj
chgo

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

Beware_of_PJ!

Patrick is snapping, growling & showing his teeth over here.

lulz

 

[Rak9up]

Sorry Patrick

Didn't mean to "spin you up"

And I did exagerate trying to prove a point most sticks holding at the very end come in around 7 to 5 ounces depending on joint pin and shaft taper

Grabbing further back or Lengthing the stroke does add to topspin in an open bridge for 2 major reasons

1. grabbing further back increases the distance traveled to get to the cueball this added distance means you can generate more acceleration which = more topsin

2.grabbing further back increases "downward side force" applied to the cueball which = more topspin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Didn't mean to "spin you up"

Are you talking about what Dawg said? Ignore the peanut gallery - their hobby is creating spin.

Grabbing further back or Lengthing the stroke does add to topspin in an open bridge for 2 major reasons

1. grabbing further back increases the distance traveled to get to the cueball this added distance means you can generate more acceleration which = more topsin

"Grabbing further back" doesn't do this. Taking a longer backswing would do it, but you don't need to grip farther back for that.

2.grabbing further back increases "downward side force" applied to the cueball which = more topspin

The total "downward force" of gravity acting at the tip has absolutely nothing to do with the shot's outcome, not because it doesn't exist, but because it's too small in comparison with the major forces in the collision. If you hit the shot with an open bridge while weightless in space you'll create the same amount of spin on the CB (and an equal amount of reverse spin on yourself).

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

The total "downward force" when you're gripping the cue at the normal grip position is already too small to matter, especially compared with the extreme forces in a tip/ball collision. Moving your hand back might add a miniscule amount of additional weight at the tip, which couldn't possibly have any practical effect.

Well stated. For what its worth, I agree.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Dave:
Well stated.

Thanks. Maybe I should have read this before I totally changed it.

pj
chgo

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

Didn't mean to "spin you up"

Are you talking about what Dawg said? Ignore the peanut gallery - their hobby is creating spin.

Alright PJ, "spin you up" prolly means to confuse you.

Had nothing to do with what I said.

re; Peanut gallery... I hope you aren't coming up in my thread calling me the peanut gallery. Don't make me go all eThug on you. lol.

but seriously, good thread guys. got the balance point conclusion.