"old growth" shaft?

duke@neo.rr.com

duke@neo.rr.com

soon to be banned
Silver Member
opinions wanted! what exactly IS an "old growth" shaft? I wanna know if anyone uses them in their cues, and where I can try one or possibly buy one with a 3/8x10 thread. are they really "brown" wood like I've been told before? whats the deal with em'? any info would be appreciated.
 
old growth

this is one thread I HAVE to watch. I was told the number of rings is what made the difference, then I was told, by someone else I trust, how tight the rings are is the difference, then told, its not how tight, its how symetrical, and so on and so on ....

I know the shafts I have from my cuemaker of choice, hit real well.

And have been told by another guy, its all relative and one of the most hotly debated topics there is.

I'm pulling up a chair so I can read ....
 
If you are referring to those waterlogged maple, they aren't very common.
Dayton, Josey and Krick offer them afaik.
They are hard, heavy and stiff. Cannot be smoothen quite like the shafts today.
They are stable of course.
But, they do hit really hard and some would argue causes the cueball to squirt more due to it's weight and stiffness.
 
shafts

RascalDoc said:
this is one thread I HAVE to watch. I was told the number of rings is what made the difference, then I was told, by someone else I trust, how tight the rings are is the difference, then told, its not how tight, its how symetrical, and so on and so on ....

I know the shafts I have from my cuemaker of choice, hit real well.

And have been told by another guy, its all relative and one of the most hotly debated topics there is.

I'm pulling up a chair so I can read ....
Click to expand...

yeah, the ones I have from MY cuemaker of choice hit well too, but am wondering really if these would play better?
 
Beware of False "old Growth"

I've had two cuemakers in my shop in the past 4 months, and have had chats with more, and I must say there are alot of cuemakers that are "internet educated". Anything that is said on the internet is gospel. They both looked at my shaft wood and said, "old growth" wow. They don't know the difference between a dence heavy shaft, and a shaft that has been dipped in nelsonite.

Also one looked through my birdseye and found a few peices of heart wood bird, and quickly said "old growth bird" wow. I could have made a fortune of both of those guys.

Also, love that anything with high figure, is now refered to as "burl". Cocobolo is not a burl, I don't care how pretty it is. Bacote is not a burl either.

It is relative, I want shafts that have 8+ grain lines, That are as straight as I can get them, also a straight center of the shaft spine is a major plus for me. Some times I make acceptions, but not offen. Other shafts are made into B/j's or jump cues. All my shafts are treated the same regardless, as much time and effort go into a b/j shaft as a playing shaft.

I learned the banging the shaft trick and what to listen for from Mike Lambros, I don't use this technique, but makes me laugh hearing about others doing it, expecially when I know they have no idea what there listening for but think they look good doing it. NOT that there aren't those who do know what to listen for, I have meet afew that have no idea but claim they do.

Bryan Fisher
Fisher Cues
 
joey,,,,does a wood have to've been sitting under water for centuries to be "old growth"?

i'll take it at face value,,,,the older the tree the more(and thus tighter) the grain(growth rings).

this is a thread for "ask the cuemaker", not for numbskulls like us:)
 
i think "old growth" and the wood they found at the bottom of lake superior is probably two different things.. although what is found at the bottom of lake superior is probably old growth, its just that its been enhanced by being underwater for so long without ever being touched...

i am also under the impression that the lake superior wood is also called Timeless timber.. is this true? or are they two different things?

chris
 
imo old growth wood is ideal for shafts. this is what i've learned, because the wood get's "attacked" by bacteria in the water the bacteria removes any impurities that are in the wood, leaving tiny microscopic chambers throughout the wood. the chambers along with the high growth ring count produce a more evenly resonant piece of wood. old growth wood is hundreds of years old and has around 40 or so growth rings per inch. today's wood has around 6 per inch ( i think a higher ring count plays a big part in the deflection performance of the shaft and it's "feel" through the shots ). the amount of growth rings along with the "change" the wood goes under in it's environment leaves for a much more stable wood for not only cue shafts but anything that needs consistent resonance. it's pricy but if your picky worth it.
 
ChrisOnline said:
i think "old growth" and the wood they found at the bottom of lake superior is probably two different things.. although what is found at the bottom of lake superior is probably old growth, its just that its been enhanced by being underwater for so long without ever being touched...

i am also under the impression that the lake superior wood is also called Timeless timber.. is this true? or are they two different things?

chris
Click to expand...
Timeless Timber is the company who offers them.
http://timelesstimber.com/
Old growth might not be waterlogged but waterlogged shafts are surely old growth. In fact, they might be first harvest.
 
today's wood has around 6 per inch

That would be reject shafts nowadays.
10 or over are a little closer.
 
JoeyInCali said:
today's wood has around 6 per inch

That would be reject shafts nowadays.
10 or over are a little closer.
Click to expand...

man you must be using good wood!;) :D
 
ok.. the name of the company makes sense.. i knew i heard it referred to as that... and thats exactly what i thought about old growth and the under water old growth.. i figured it still would be consider old growth..lol..

- very informative this is.. :)

chris
 
I alway's considered "old growth" wood to be timber that grew slowly in the dense forests that had never been cut. The smaller trees had to compete for sunlight and water with the larger trees causing them to grow at a much slower rate. This is why the rings on old growth wood are much tighter than what is cut now. You can also get wood with tighter rings if it is harvested at a high altitude because of the slower growth.
 
skins said:
man you must be using good wood!;) :D
Click to expand...

yeah, man,,,,

i've talked to a couple of cuemakers, and listening to them i got the impression that the stuff joey is talking about is difficult to come by. otoh, my preference is for dark GRAIN shaftwood(this does not necessarily mean dark wood), and i think these woods have a great spine. the grain isn't always tight, but the hit is very sharp.
 
bruin70 said:
yeah, man,,,,

i've talked to a couple of cuemakers, and listening to them i got the impression that the stuff joey is talking about is difficult to come by. otoh, my preference is for dark GRAIN shaftwood(this does not necessarily mean dark wood), and i think these woods have a great spine. the grain isn't always tight, but the hit is very sharp.
Click to expand...

Note that English Snooker cues traditionally use Ash shafts which is actually stained to exhageratte the appearance of the grain. Good cues are made so that the grain lines up down the body of the cue like arrow heads pointing towards the tip. They are also aligned so that the flat cut out of the butt end is facing upwards when the grain is lined up straight along the length of the shaft as an aiming/consistency guide.
 
AuntyDan said:
Supposedly one of the secreats of the master instrument maker Stradivarius was used wood that had been soaked in sea water.
Click to expand...

i think the resonance of wood is key in both musical instruments and pool cues. i have an old Sonor drum set that's made with old growth scandinavian birch. they're gems in the studio. you can really hear the difference when comparing them to other high end drum sets. enhancing the sound with an EQ is not necessary due to the inherent purity of tone emitted by them already. there really is a difference with this type wood.
 
Hambone said:
I alway's considered "old growth" wood to be timber that grew slowly in the dense forests that had never been cut. The smaller trees had to compete for sunlight and water with the larger trees causing them to grow at a much slower rate. This is why the rings on old growth wood are much tighter than what is cut now. You can also get wood with tighter rings if it is harvested at a high altitude because of the slower growth.
Click to expand...
This is exactly right. Most original old growth woodlands have disappeared of course, due to the intense logging of the last 200 years. However, there are still pockets of old growth that are currently being harvested -- it is just a little harder to find through standard wood vendors.

The wood from the bottom of lake Superior (and many other waterways) is old growth because it was old growth when it was harvested 100 years ago or so, not because it has sat in the lake for that long. I do not profess to know anything about what the effect of that long underwater soaking is...

--> in my day job I work with a little wood :)
 
1pocket said:
This is exactly right. Most original old growth woodlands have disappeared of course, due to the intense logging of the last 200 years. However, there are still pockets of old growth that are currently being harvested -- it is just a little harder to find through standard wood vendors.

The wood from the bottom of lake Superior (and many other waterways) is old growth because it was old growth when it was harvested 100 years ago or so, not because it has sat in the lake for that long. I do not profess to know anything about what the effect of that long underwater soaking is...
Click to expand...

This how I understand the difference between the two. As mentioned the "Timeless Timber" is noticably darker, heavier with above avg growth rings (old growth) and delivers a very solid hit. I had a Diveney B/J cue like this. Wish I'd kept it.:p Some makers offer it as maybe a $100 upgrade.

I think someone mentioned higher deflection earlier in this thread. IMHO maybe the old heavier submerged maple shafts would be more practical in a break shaft rather than a playing shaft.
 
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