On the 8, no hit, scratch = Loss of game?

DAVE_M

DAVE_M

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play in a local bar league. $5 a night to play, handicaps similar to APA, but you have to win as many games as your handicap. I'm a 5 in the league, which ranks from a 2-7. I played a 6 tonight and won my match.
I won the lag. Won the first 2 games. On the 3rd game, I was on the 8 and missed an easy bank shot. My opponent played safe behind his two remaining balls, leaving me a cross side kick at the 8 ball. I elected to play a safe and missed the 8 completely, scratching into the side pocket. No contact was made. The other team said that I lost the game and our team disputed it. In the rules it says that "If a player is shooting on the 8 and scratches, he/she loses regardless if it is made or not." That's pretty grey area to me. We offered to give them time to call the league operator on the claim and they refused.
So... Our team disputed the claim and read the rule sheet. Both teams agreed it was an oddball rule and said that my opponent take ball in hand and shoot his remaining two balls and pocket the 8 to win. He poked at his balls attempting another safety and left me a 2 rail cross side bank. I made it as I called it and proceeded to rack/break for the next game. I ended up winning 5-0.
I decided to call the league operator after the match and to my surprised, I was wrong. She said that if I scratch while attempting to hit/pocket the 8, regardless if I contact the ball or not. It is a loss of the game. Luckily my opponent forfeited after the 5th game by unscrewing his cues and placing them into his case.

I've always known it to be ball in hand ( a foul ) if no object ball is contacted, regardless if it be the 8, striped ball, or solid ball. Was I in the right and the league have junk rules or am I completely mistaken?
 
you are wrong. scratch on the 8 is a foul/loss of game

btw...the way the rule reads how on earth do you think it is a gray area? it is straight forward in what it says.
 
The reason I believe it is a grey area is because in the past I have done the same and I was told it was ball in hand.

I did not make an attempt to pocket the 8ball.
I did not call a pocket to attempt to pocket the 8ball.
I called a safety.
I did not make cue ball to 8ball contact.
And I scratched, which is a foul (resulting in ball in hand)

I don't understand why that would be a loss of game.

To my understanding and from other rulebooks I have read.
Loss of game occurs when:
The 8ball is contacted and the cue ball scratches.
The 8ball is made in the wrong pocket.
The 8ball is made and the cue ball scratches.
 
DAVE_M said:
The reason I believe it is a grey area is because in the past I have done the same and I was told it was ball in hand.

I did not make an attempt to pocket the 8ball.
I did not call a pocket to attempt to pocket the 8ball.
I called a safety.
I did not make cue ball to 8ball contact.
And I scratched, which is a foul (resulting in ball in hand)

I don't understand why that would be a loss of game.

To my understanding and from other rulebooks I have read.
Loss of game occurs when:
The 8ball is contacted and the cue ball scratches.
The 8ball is made in the wrong pocket.
The 8ball is made and the cue ball scratches.
Click to expand...

obviously the wrong call was made in your previous matches. the rule is stated in the book and therefore not a gray area. :wink:

attempting to pocket the ball or not a scratch on the 8 ball is different than the other 7 balls.

bolded areas. you didnt contact the ball and scratched...so you fouled and still scratched...why would that not be a loss of game?
 
Last edited:
Ahhh gotcha. Well like I said. Luckily my opponent broke down his cues and I automatically won by his forfeit.
 
Sounds like a stupid rule to me.

The league i play in it's always ball in hand unless you make the 8 and scratch with the cue ball, or make the 8 in a different pocket than the one you called, everything else is just ball in hand.

If i played with a rule like that i'd just cluster all my f'ing balls around the 8 and never even attempt to make any...lol.
 
rrich1 said:
gotta love wins like that.

why did he break his cue down?
Click to expand...

He has beat me the past two times he's played me in the past. He became very angry and broke down his playing cue, threw it on the floor, then went in the bathroom. When he came out he put his break cue and other junk into his case. I asked his captain why he was so upset and he didn't have a clue. Some people just get angry like that I suppose.

I believe I could have beaten him the next games if it had gone on as 4-1 with myself on the hill.
 
Scratch on the 8 is loss of game regardless of touching it with the cueball or not. The rule sounds pretty clear to me.
 
Dave,

You state "rules similar to APA". As you are not playing APA or TAP, only the rules package your in-house league plays by are in force. BCAPL, VNEA and ACS do not consider scratching or fouling on the eight ball WITHOUT pocketing the eight ball a loss. It's cue ball in hand for your opponent. Everything depends on YOUR league rules.

Lyn
 
In most parts of the country this is a loss, in the national leagues (TAP/APA not 100% sure about the BCA) this is a loss, if you look hard enough you will be able to find it written otherwise but that this is a loss is MUCH more common. One way is not smart/correct and another stupid/wrong. Sounds to me like the rules you are playing by it's clear that this is a loss. Around here it's a loss. That is the thing that sucks about pool we can't decide on simple rules like this.
 
Yes, bad rule

Lumocolor said:
Sounds like a stupid rule to me.

The league i play in it's always ball in hand unless you make the 8 and scratch with the cue ball, or make the 8 in a different pocket than the one you called, everything else is just ball in hand.

If i played with a rule like that i'd just cluster all my f'ing balls around the 8 and never even attempt to make any...lol.
Click to expand...

The rule is a holdover from the days when we still used the "kitchen" to place the cue ball after a scratch. If you and your opponent were both on the 8-ball and the 8 was in the kitchen you could scratch intentionally and force them to kick. This was ameliorated first by adding a rule that in such a situation, you could spot the 8, and then they made scratching on the 8 an automatic loss to keep things simple for the rookies.

The rule that it's an automatic loss if you MAKE the 8 and scratch was originally a result of the coin-op tables, when you'd have to spend an extra dime (yes, the first coin-ops were a dime a game!) to retrieve the 8.
When I first saw top players play 8-ball (mid-'50s), when they scratched while making the 8 they simply spotted the 8 and the opponent shot from the kitchen (or sometimes BIH). Back then the serious players played two-foul ball in hand and three consecutive fouls was a loss as in 9-ball.

The BCAPL, ACS and others may not have "perfect" rules, but at least they did away with the automatic loss when scratching on a missed attempt to pocket or play safe when shooting the 8. The "old" way (and the APA way) can be brutal in this regard. A few years back I was setting a personal record of winning 44 games in a row in a local 8-ball league, when my opponent hooked me on the 8 for the third straight shot. The 8 was in the jaws frozen to the rail. I gave him BIH twice and then was finally forced to kick 18 feet to make the 8. Against all odds my CB crept by the 8 and scratched, and my streak was over...

I'll be adding an extensive piece about the history of 8-ball rules to my new website which is under construction.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
I am at a loss

DAVE_M said:
The reason I believe it is a grey area is because in the past I have done the same and I was told it was ball in hand.

I did not make an attempt to pocket the 8ball.
I did not call a pocket to attempt to pocket the 8ball.
I called a safety.
I did not make cue ball to 8ball contact.
And I scratched, which is a foul (resulting in ball in hand)

I don't understand why that would be a loss of game.

To my understanding and from other rulebooks I have read.
Loss of game occurs when:
The 8ball is contacted and the cue ball scratches.
The 8ball is made in the wrong pocket.
The 8ball is made and the cue ball scratches.
Click to expand...

The rule is very cut and dry. I always played by that rule until I play in BCA leagues. This can't not be a real pool player putting up this post, has to be someone trying to stir up crap.
 
I've never liked any 8-ball rules where just scratching when you are shooting the 8 is a loss unless you make the 8 ball. Way too easy to abuse it. A guy could easily win if the 8 is tied up, and the shooter failed to break it out for a clean shot, or even if someone just decided to tie it up. You have one guy with all balls gone, say he missed the 8 or tried for a safe. The other one taps one of his balls near the 8 for a safe. You miss a kick or something and it's a loss? Takes the whole point of the game away with that rule.
 
I played 8 ball when I first started playing with an older guy who misread the BCA rules, it was not clearly stated in the book and said if a foul is committed while pocketing the 8 ball it is a loss of game, it meant if the 8 is pocketed not while shooting it or not making contact, it is ball in hand. We figured this out but before we did we had played many times with it being a loss and he would hook me and get the easy win. That rule of not hitting the 8 ball is a loss is for the bangers IMO.

When I go into a bar for cheap action for a beer or a buck I make these rules clear, scratch on the break is not a loss and if you do not hit the 8 then its not a loss, call your pocket. Who wants to lose a game because you ran the balls and got hooked on the 8 or your opponent locks you up and you cant hit the 8 and lose, he does not even make a ball. I have also saw people scratch intentionally because the 8 ball was in the kitchen in bars forcing you to kick at the 8 ball, to me that is just a joke. If you think that is good pool then you are a banger. :rolleyes:
 
Fast Lenny said:
I played 8 ball when I first started playing with an older guy who misread the BCA rules, it was not clearly stated in the book and said if a foul is committed while pocketing the 8 ball it is a loss of game, it meant if the 8 is pocketed not while shooting it or not making contact, it is ball in hand. We figured this out but before we did we had played many times with it being a loss and he would hook me and get the easy win. That rule of not hitting the 8 ball is a loss is for the bangers IMO.

When I go into a bar for cheap action for a beer or a buck I make these rules clear, scratch on the break is not a loss and if you do not hit the 8 then its not a loss, call your pocket. Who wants to lose a game because you ran the balls and got hooked on the 8 or your opponent locks you up and you cant hit the 8 and lose, he does not even make a ball. I have also saw people scratch intentionally because the 8 ball was in the kitchen in bars forcing you to kick at the 8 ball, to me that is just a joke. If you think that is good pool then you are a banger. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I agree, and like the BCA rules, but his problem wasn't about not contacting the eight ball, but about scratching on the 8. "If a player is shooting on the 8 and scratches, he/she loses regardless if it is made or not." Unfortunately a lot of leagues played this way through the years, and some still do today. The rule is cut and dry. It is the rule in his league, and he should know it. Our opinion on the rule doesn't matter, it is the rule.

You make a great point at making sure of the rules before you play. When I go home and play their 8 ball rules in regards to scratching are the same as above. They do not play ball in hand if you foul on the break, so I always get yelled at when I attempt ball in hand outside the kitchen. Their rules, I must abide by them.
 
robsnotes4u said:
You make a great point at making sure of the rules before you play. When I go home and play their 8 ball rules in regards to scratching are the same as above. They do not play ball in hand if you foul on the break, so I always get yelled at when I attempt ball in hand outside the kitchen. Their rules, I must abide by them.
Click to expand...

Nothing makes me happier than beating an opponent who has no idea what the rules of play are. At least once a year before our first night of BCAPL play, I read the applicable sections of the new rule book. Don't know how many times I'll intentionally pocket one of my opponents balls and give them cue ball in hand and they just stare at me. Their reaction is usually "you lose"! Then again, I hope they keep themselves ignorant of the rules of play. It's all about winning :eek:. Correct????

Lyn
 
robsnotes4u said:
I agree, and like the BCA rules, but his problem wasn't about not contacting the eight ball, but about scratching on the 8. "If a player is shooting on the 8 and scratches, he/she loses regardless if it is made or not." Unfortunately a lot of leagues played this way through the years, and some still do today. The rule is cut and dry. It is the rule in his league, and he should know it. Our opinion on the rule doesn't matter, it is the rule.

You make a great point at making sure of the rules before you play. When I go home and play their 8 ball rules in regards to scratching are the same as above. They do not play ball in hand if you foul on the break, so I always get yelled at when I attempt ball in hand outside the kitchen. Their rules, I must abide by them.
Click to expand...
I agree but even the scratch in the pocket while shooting at the 8 is a crappy rule but not as bad as the no contact loss that is for sure. I am okay with playing bar rules in the kitchen with no ball in hand as long as the stupid loss of games are taking out of it like on the break, no hit on the 8 stuff.
 
PGHteacher said:
In most parts of the country this is a loss, in the national leagues (TAP/APA not 100% sure about the BCA) this is a loss ... Around here it's a loss ...

That is the thing that sucks about pool we can't decide on simple rules like this.
Click to expand...

WPA said:
3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
Click to expand...

Doesn't say anything about fouling while playing the 8, only if pocketing it at the same time. Leagues just make up weird little "bar rules" of their own.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top