Once and for all!

[Southpaw]

I don't totally agree. Men complain all the time about women double dipping in the men's division and knocking them out and then playing in the women's division.

I have agreed about all the long run comments - EXCEPT for the one that started all this that a woman would NEVER win a 7 ahead set against a top 500 male player.

I want to tell you all something that Ralf Souquet told me once when I asked him about gambling vs. tournament play - this is what he said.

He said that in his opinion tournaments were much harder because there are no second chances against your opponent. He said that when you play in a tournament then you have to bring your A game each time no matter how you feel, who you are playing, what the table condition is and so on. And you have to do this for hours on end in back to back matches for days at a time to win a major event.

He said that when you gamble you get to settle in and figure your opponent out, figure the table out, get used to the conditions and so on. He said that you have as long as your money lasts to figure out how to win. But not so in tournaments.

So I agree that the men have the advantage in long sets right now. But I also feel that there is no absolute. Champions breed champions it's that simple. I think that any woman who can afford to get her ass kicked by Archer for a week and has any brains and talent at all will come away a much better player. Someone like Kelly who already beats the ghost doesn't have to improve her ball pocketing ability so she will learn Archer's patterns and safeties and other moves. So the first week she loses the majority of sets. Not all of them. The next week she wins more sets - and the following week more sets until she is doing everything that Johnny is capable of and they are about even.

But right now such opportunities either don't exist or the women aren't taking advantage of them.

I think that it's ludicrous to denounce a woman's victory or high placement in a tournament as just a fluke because "anyone can win a tournament match". Not true, not just anyone can win a tournament match against the top players in the world. But the top women players are capable of it and capable of going deep in men's tournaments.

Anyway, I will try to put myself in a position to promote the Kelly Fisher vs. Brian White match. The worst I can do is go broke and if I do then I can pump back up easily enough. The payoff however IF Kelly wins would be fantastic and that is incentive enough for me to try.

Thats kinds the whole point...in a tourney (say a race to 11) any mistakes can really hurt you, but in an 11 ahead set the better player can overcome some mistakes because if he wins one or two games, then its like an even race again. If Brain and Kelly played an 11 ahead set, I would pretty much unload my pocket on Brian. Nothing against Kelly...I have seen her play and she is very talented, but I dont think she will get there. JMO.

Southpaw

 

[Southpaw]

Brady is from Charlotte. Hell yeah, he can play too. He's not under the radar in the Carolinas.

Bradys one pocket game is pretty damn sporty too...

Southpaw

 

[JB Cases]

some of the people on here only see the players that are at the biggest tournaments and narrow that down to being the 50-100 best players and the only ones that can play I guess. They don't understand that there are hundreds of players that play A speed that hardly ever play in tournaments or only regional tournaments. I just spoke to Brian and he is at the hospital having his second child (congrats) but he said that some guy named Brady (whom I had never heard of and I know a lot of pool players) beat Kelly in a 8 or 9 ahead set. I dont think people realize just how many good players are out there and the disparity between the sexes. It's like I said in an earlier post, I can shoot under par from 6200 yards and there are thousands of people in the US that can beat me at golf, maybe closer to 10,000. Just think about that for a minute. If I can shoot par on a course comparable to that the ladies tour plays on, then think about the disparity between the two tours. It's overwhelming , and its the same in pool.

There are not TONS of pro speed players out there. Brady is well known around the Carolinas as a pro-speed player that doesn't really go anywhere .

Congrats Brian. Matching up with two kids and a family is way more important than who is better at pool.

I have this challenge to everyone here - name the players in your state who you think can beat Kelly Fisher, Allison Fisher, and Karen Corr consistently.

Let's see what kind of a list develops.

I will start with the states I lived in:

Arkansas: I never met anyone in Arkansas that I would put over Kelly Fisher consistently. If you know someone list them.

Colorado: Danny Medina maybe.

North Carolina: Brady (from reputation), no one else that I saw play who impressed me as being able to beat Kelly consistently. I would have listed Jeff Abernathy but he is already off the never ever list since he already lost a 7 ahead set. I don't see how a 20 AHEAD set would have helped him there. Scott Rabon perhaps (reputation, never saw him play) Tony Watson.

I am biased so you all go ahead list the players you think can always beat the ladies.





Let's see what kind of a

 

[Southpaw]

There are not TONS of pro speed players out there. Brady is well known around the Carolinas as a pro-speed player that doesn't really go anywhere .

Congrats Brian. Matching up with two kids and a family is way more important than who is better at pool.

I have this challenge to everyone here - name the players in your state who you think can beat Kelly Fisher, Allison Fisher, and Karen Corr consistently.

Let's see what kind of a list develops.

I will start with the states I lived in:

Arkansas: I never met anyone in Arkansas that I would put over Kelly Fisher consistently. If you know someone list them.

Colorado: Danny Medina maybe.

North Carolina: Brady (from reputation), no one else that I saw play who impressed me as being able to beat Kelly consistently. I would have listed Jeff Abernathy but he is already off the never ever list since he already lost a 7 ahead set. I don't see how a 20 AHEAD set would have helped him there. Scott Rabon perhaps (reputation, never saw him play) Tony Watson.

I am biased so you all go ahead list the players you think can always beat the ladies.





Let's see what kind of a

Georgia:
Johnny Archer
Kim Davenport
Stevie Moore
Bruce Berrong
Cliff Joyner (if he is still here)
Lenny Semanski
Richie Semanski
Jimmy Wales
Paul Song
Randy Burris
Mark Gregory

Noted Pobables Include:
Jesse Middlebrook
Duane Davis
Brian Tyler
Paul Turner

Southpaw (not on the list )

 

[JB Cases]

Thats kinds the whole point...in a tourney (say a race to 11) any mistakes can really hurt you, but in an 11 ahead set the better player can overcome some mistakes because if he wins one or two games, then its like an even race again. If Brain and Kelly played an 11 ahead set, I would pretty much unload my pocket on Brian. Nothing against Kelly...I have seen her play and she is very talented, but I dont think she will get there. JMO.

Southpaw

Yes I agree. However the whole premise of that point is that the better player remains the better player throughout.

What makes Brian or anyone believe that Kelly can't learn? So you beat her one set and she observes what you did to beat her or what she did wrong to lose. Then she puts that new knowledge into play to come back again and you beat her again but not so easily this time. Then she comes back again and this time wins a set. Why doesn't ANYONE think that this is possible.

I have huge issues with the idea that women plateau and can't get any better JUST BECAUSE they are women.

There is however some truth to it and it's ONLY because so many people choose to express that this is the way it is and always will be - that women come to believe it themselves and stop trying to break the glass ceiling. Why should a woman try to get even better when she fade all the stereotypes and bad attitudes.

No one but me thinks Kelly will get there. That's fine. I happen to know for a fact that IF Kelly Fisher wants to try then she has a better shot at getting there than most men who would try.

 

[corvette1340]

The Carolinas

Brian White
Larry Nevel
Shannon Daulton
Gabe Owen
Tony Watson
Earl Strickland
Mike Gulyassy
Brady ?
Scott Rabun
Sparky Ferrell
Mike Fuller
BJ Ussery
Keith Bennett
Derek Leonard
Mike Davis
Mike Coltrain if he still plays
many more I'm leaving out

Thats almost 30 in just the Carolinas and Georgia for godsake!!
so 47 other states if they just have 5 in each state ( true number more like 10 but for arguments sake we'll say they avg. 5 each. Thats 235. So basically over 250 easily in the US. Then take the Phillipines, all of Asia, Europe, Canada, etc.... Hell, there may be 1000 or more now that JB has broken it down for us.

 

[corvette1340]

Yes I agree. However the whole premise of that point is that the better player remains the better player throughout.

What makes Brian or anyone believe that Kelly can't learn? So you beat her one set and she observes what you did to beat her or what she did wrong to lose. Then she puts that new knowledge into play to come back again and you beat her again but not so easily this time. Then she comes back again and this time wins a set. Why doesn't ANYONE think that this is possible.

I have huge issues with the idea that women plateau and can't get any better JUST BECAUSE they are women.

There is however some truth to it and it's ONLY because so many people choose to express that this is the way it is and always will be - that women come to believe it themselves and stop trying to break the glass ceiling. Why should a woman try to get even better when she fade all the stereotypes and bad attitudes.

No one but me thinks Kelly will get there. That's fine. I happen to know for a fact that IF Kelly Fisher wants to try then she has a better shot at getting there than most men who would try.

so are you conceding the fact that she wants no part of Brian, or are you still wanting to go in hock to back her in this match?

 

[JB Cases]

so are you conceding the fact that she wants no part of Brian, or are you still wanting to go in hock to back her in this match?

I never said Kelly wants no part of Brian.

I will totally back her as I said I would. If all you can focus on is Kelly vs. Brian then I guess the whole point of the discussion is completely lost.

Are you willing to bet that out of 100 7 ahead sets that Kelly will NOT WIN one of them?

This is what Brian said is the case. So I will take you up on that bet right now and have Kelly waiting at the poolroom to begin the session. Hell I will even let you all play just 50 sets.

There you go, I will bet the other side of Brian's statement that a woman will NEVER win a 7/8 ahead set against a top male player. If you want to switch out Archer or someone else you feel is stronger than Brian that fine with me - we will lengthen the amount of sets then to allow my player more time to try and win. Since NEVER WIN is the bet it shouldn't matter how long they play.

I will bet my $50,000 to your $50,000 that Kelly Fisher will win at least one 7/8 ahead set over the course of 50 sets against Brian Jones or at least one against any nationally ranked player in over the course of 70 sets. That's what Brian said will never ever happen and he's your player so do we have a bet?

 

[JB Cases]

The Carolinas

Brian White
Larry Nevel
Shannon Daulton
Gabe Owen
Tony Watson
Earl Strickland
Mike Gulyassy
Brady ?
Scott Rabun
Sparky Ferrell
Mike Fuller
BJ Ussery
Keith Bennett
Derek Leonard
Mike Davis
Mike Coltrain if he still plays
many more I'm leaving out

Thats almost 30 in just the Carolinas and Georgia for godsake!!
so 47 other states if they just have 5 in each state ( true number more like 10 but for arguments sake we'll say they avg. 5 each. Thats 235. So basically over 250 easily in the US. Then take the Phillipines, all of Asia, Europe, Canada, etc.... Hell, there may be 1000 or more now that JB has broken it down for us.

Empirically doesn't work, let's hear the names. Oh and folks no double dipping, either Gabe is from Kansas or from the Carolinas not both.

We might just end up with the TAR roadshow.

 

[Kelly Fisher]

Just to show your stupidity and lack of knowledge. I went to play kelly at her home poolroom and she and her stakehorse said they could not play without the 7! So who exactly can't stand the heat? AND SINCE YOU WANT TO SAY SHE LEARNS AND I DON'T, AND YOU WANT TO BRING UP "MOVING" I GUESS WE CAN PLAY A SET OF 1 POCKET TOO, HUH?

Brain, Just out of curiosity, at which poolroom did you come to play me?
To the best of my recollection, I personally dont think I have never met you. Also I usually only play games that have been set up in advance, so I'm sure I would remember.
Kelly
P.S Can't play 1 pocket to save my life

 

[corvette1340]

I never said Kelly wants no part of Brian.

I will totally back her as I said I would. If all you can focus on is Kelly vs. Brian then I guess the whole point of the discussion is completely lost.

Are you willing to bet that out of 100 7 ahead sets that Kelly will NOT WIN one of them?

This is what Brian said is the case. So I will take you up on that bet right now and have Kelly waiting at the poolroom to begin the session. Hell I will even let you all play just 50 sets.

There you go, I will bet the other side of Brian's statement that a woman will NEVER win a 7/8 ahead set against a top male player. If you want to switch out Archer or someone else you feel is stronger than Brian that fine with me - we will lengthen the amount of sets then to allow my player more time to try and win. Since NEVER WIN is the bet it shouldn't matter how long they play.

I will bet my $50,000 to your $50,000 that Kelly Fisher will win at least one 7/8 ahead set over the course of 50 sets against Brian Jones or at least one against any nationally ranked player in over the course of 70 sets. That's what Brian said will never ever happen and he's your player so do we have a bet?

lol, do you ever comprehend the posts in question or do you simply read them and form your own word jumbles and then start typing? I never said that Kelly could beat Brian in 50 or 100 straight ahead sets. I SAID that if he plays her a 20 ahead set that you can bet all you want. You are basically trying to call after the turn on a gutshot straight flush draw and betting that you hit it, and you might hit it 1 out of 50 times. Good luck on getting someone to bet you that. I must have missed where anyone offered the bet where someone plays 50 ahead sets and just has to lose 1 to lose the bet. If you do get that bet from someone then maybe TAR can make it a PPV over the course of a year or two. lol, are you on crack? Seriously.

 

[crawfish]

As bad as I hate to do it. Toss in Robert Ray in the Carolinas. There, Robert, you owe me a beer.

 

[JB Cases]

lol, do you ever comprehend the posts in question or do you simply read them and form your own word jumbles and then start typing? I never said that Kelly could beat Brian in 50 or 100 straight ahead sets. I SAID that if he plays her a 20 ahead set that you can bet all you want. You are basically trying to call after the turn on a gutshot straight flush draw and betting that you hit it, and you might hit it 1 out of 50 times. Good luck on getting someone to bet you that. I must have missed where anyone offered the bet where someone plays 50 ahead sets and just has to lose 1 to lose the bet. If you do get that bet from someone then maybe TAR can make it a PPV over the course of a year or two. lol, are you on crack? Seriously.

So this means that you are admitting that Brian is wrong in his contention that a woman can never ever win a 7 ahead set against a top 500 player?

I comprehend the posts just fine. Apparently between us I am the only one who is still on topic and discussing Brian's initial points. Once again in the who said what category you can get the rainbow and the breaks and I am stone cold stealing. I don't even need to go back and look up who said what. I will let you digest EXACTLY what I wrote and would suggest a course at the nearest Sylvan learning center if you still can't get it.

Just trying to help...

 

[muttley76]

For the record, Brian plays good enough to beat almost anyone(except Brian Butler). lol. Iba, how many in AL might play Ms. Fisher? I personally cant beat Bwhizzle, and I might be persuaded to play her some(nothing chauvanistic implied,I just like action).

 

[mbvl]

So this means that you are admitting that Brian is wrong in his contention that against a top 500 player?

I comprehend the posts just fine. Apparently between us I am the only one who is still on topic and discussing Brian's initial points. Once again in the who said what category you can get the rainbow and the breaks and I am stone cold stealing. I don't even need to go back and look up who said what. I will let you digest EXACTLY what I wrote and would suggest a course at the nearest Sylvan learning center if you still can't get it.

Just trying to help...

No, you don't read posts "just fine". What you attributed to Brian is "a woman can never ever win a 7 ahead set ". What Brian said is "if she played the top men 7 or 8 ahead 7 days in a row she would NEVER win." If you can't see the difference, ...

I'll up it to 1000. No woman pool player today can ever win against any of the top 1000 men playing 7 or 8 ahead 7 days in a row.

Mark

 

[hippiepool]

BP,
The number 500 was the topic of discussion by the initiator of this thread (see first post in thread). While everyone is entitled to their opinion, he was fairly strident in ridiculing those with opposing opinions (and so far has not been willing to risk any cash on his opinion in contrast to JB).

If you are interested, the Action Report guys may be interested in televising a match if you come up with the 10 grand and a list. We'll have no trouble raising 10 grand on Allison (of course, convincing her to play would be a different story ). I'm sure that the top 100 men in the world all have a chance to beat her; I'm not convinced about the top 500.

thats only 10 players from each state ........Willie ...I can think of 10 players in Indiana who beat any of the women .....

 

[wincardona]

format

The format is crucial to the outcome of the matches. I'm saying that there are not more than 150 male players that can beat Allison Fisher in a race to 30 with TV and the conditions that she plays under in tournament play. The alternate break rule will also be in affect. If she was to play them in a pool room enviroment there would probably be 300 male players that would win. Allison Fisher will be very intimidating to any man with the conditions that I mentioned. It's really a moot point because we'll never know if she can or can't simply because we can never produce the challenge. But based on how she has fared against the men in the tournaments that I have witnessed ,I would have to believe that she would do even better in a showcased match with men players. Much more pressure on the men in that type of a match.We are talking about the type of pressure that very few men will handle well , and she would definetly feed off of .

 

[BRKNRUN]

The format is crucial to the outcome of the matches. I'm saying that there are not more than 150 male players that can beat Allison Fisher in a race to 30 with TV and the conditions that she plays under in tournament play. The alternate break rule will also be in affect. If she was to play them in a pool room enviroment there would probably be 300 male players that would win. Allison Fisher will be very intimidating to any man with the conditions that I mentioned. It's really a moot point because we'll never know if she can or can't simply because we can never produce the challenge. But based on how she has fared against the men in the tournaments that I have witnessed ,I would have to believe that she would do even better in a showcased match with men players. Much more pressure on the men in that type of a match.We are talking about the type of pressure that very few men will handle well , and she would definetly feed off of .

I had mentioned in a previous post that the most recent combined rankings report put Alison at 86 (That was an IPT rankings that had a farily decent sampling of the best players in the world)

I also suggested that she may fall as far as 200 over a lengthy period of time...(assuming that the money..(that was being offered) would have brought some of the "unknowns" out of the wood work....

I see in your post that you put her at about 300 "overall" so I will need to revise my statement to also be 300....(since with out a doubt your much more "traveled" in the world of pool)

Also a good point you made...The TV lights would make quite a few good players look foolish........(Your good...You should have been a Pool Analyst or Color Commentator).....

 

[B_White]

Brain, Just out of curiosity, at which poolroom did you come to play me?
To the best of my recollection, I personally dont think I have never met you. Also I usually only play games that have been set up in advance, so I'm sure I would remember.
Kelly
P.S Can't play 1 pocket to save my life

Smoking Cue in Charlotte. To the best of my recolection probably a year and a half ago. I ask your stakehorse John if you would play some but did not give my name. He found out my name and said you guys needed the 7 to play. I didn't speak to you personally but it was the same guy that staked you against Chew so I took his word for it. I figured you wouldn't play without it.

 

[B_White]

No, you don't read posts "just fine". What you attributed to Brian is "a woman can never ever win a 7 ahead set ". What Brian said is "if she played the top men 7 or 8 ahead 7 days in a row she would NEVER win." If you can't see the difference, ...

I'll up it to 1000. No woman pool player today can ever win against any of the top 1000 men playing 7 or 8 ahead 7 days in a row.

Mark

Thank you sir. Glad to see someone was paying attention.