Only Way To Play This Shot?

[skipbales]

In fact the "follow" shots do show curve. Hold a straight edge up to the screen and you can see it.

Yes, the first shots have full smooth rolling by the time they get to the object ball. That's why they curve. The shots played at high speed do not have time to curve much even though they are played with some follow.

Slippery cloth will make the curves wider. The table in Pat's diagrams has brand new cloth. That is shown by the extent of the curves for the softer shots. Follow takes time to develop and it requires more time to develop with low friction.

The deflection angle for the hard hit and less hard hit high shots look the same. Both look like an almost 90 degree stun angle. So you are saying a ball hit even with "less hard" high action will still follow the tangent line with almost no forward curve if the cloth is slippery enough. hmmm.

You are also saying the small amount of forward roll developed by a center ball hit will produce a lot of forward curve if the cloth is older (or dirtier).

That would make the cloth condition a bigger factor than where you hit the cue ball. I don't think I have ever played on cloth that slippery or that dirty but I will take your word for it all. To me the images are exactly backwards from the type hit so that makes it all about the condition of the cloth. Forgive me for my skepticism but I don't think I can produce a stun shot deflection angle no matter how hard I hit the ball at that distance if I hit high on the cue ball.

Of course the terms Hard and less hard are ambiguous. You are still tops in authority in my book. I will have to experiment more with the slippery cloth idea. I haven't experienced these extremes but am limited to a small community of tables.

 

[skipbales]

Hold a straight edge up to the screen and you can see it.
.

BTW a straight edge on my screen follows the deflection line almost perfectly. If there is curve there my old tired eyes can't see it. :frown:

 

[skipbales]

Yes, the first shots have full smooth rolling by the time they get to the object ball. That's why they curve. The shots played at high speed do not have time to curve much even though they are played with some follow.
n.

So just for fun I set the shot up and hit a few. What I learned was it totally isn't scientific. :grin-square:

At first I forgot about the "little bit of right". I hit center ball. I had to blast it to get it around two rails and past the side pocket. It followed a pretty much anticipated stun shot. Mostly because I had to hit it so hard.

I added the "little bit of right" and here is where the scientific part went to heck. The amount of right affected things so much it overcame everything else. The more right I put on it the softer I had to hit it so everything changed. Because it is hard to define "a little bit of right" the test didn't tell me much. I did notice I hit the rail less than 90 degrees once I added the right because I was hitting it softer and the cue ball developed more roll. But then I came too far down the long rail so I added a little more right to get to the intended position. Then I had to hit even softer.

My table is a "residential 8' " or so I am told it is called 44 x 88. So that is a factor as well, my cue ball doesn't roll as far before impact as on a 9'.

The cloth is 760 Simonis. I have never considered the cloth to be fast and was disappointed when we replaced the 860 Simonis with it. They played about the same. I have always wondered if we didn't get it stretched tight enough. It is not loose but also not all that fast compared to some tables I have played on.

I could not come close to duplicating the top right hard hit down the tangent line shot. Lots of reasons that could be true. In my world stroke and accuracy are still the big factors, cloth is way down the list but I will make a point to try it when I next get to play on some great 9' tables. Thanks to you and Patrick for the education.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hmmm
The center ball sliding cue ball at top shows forward curve while the bottom pics which have high show closer to a 90 degree deflection with no forward bend which would be more like a sliding cue ball. Based only on the first angle, it seems like the top pics are the High and bottom center ball instead of the other way around.

Are you sure you don't have them labeled backwards?

The center ball shots are played softly enough that the ball is probably rolling smoothly on the cloth when it gets to the OB. The follow shots show curve after contact but are played at high speed on slippery cloth. The diagrams seem correct to me.

Bob's right (and so are the labels on the pics) - the 4- & 5-rail shots are hit pretty hard and the CB is hit only a little above center, so the follow effect is less obvious, especially on new cloth.

pj
chgo

 

[skipbales]

Bob's right (and so are the labels on the pics) - the 4- & 5-rail shots are hit pretty hard and the CB is hit only a little above center, so the follow effect is less obvious, especially on new cloth.

pj
chgo

I think that is where the distinctions are. A little above, a little right, hard hit, a little less hard and so forth. Some pretty small variations in all these changed things substantially, at least on my table. Anyway, as always, I love the discussion and appreciate all you guys very much. I would never have pictured the path a hard high shot with such a straight angle deflection. Of course I was not hitting it with just a little high. I was full upper right quadrant.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think that is where the distinctions are. A little above, a little right, hard hit, a little less hard and so forth. Some pretty small variations in all these changed things substantially, at least on my table. Anyway, as always, I love the discussion and appreciate all you guys very much. I would never have pictured the path a hard high shot with such a straight angle deflection. Of course I was not hitting it with just a little high. I was full upper right quadrant.

One important point to note is that as long as the cue ball is curving the actual amount of follow makes little difference to the path. The path as long as it is curving will be the same parabola for a given shot speed until the path stops curving. More follow and it will curve into a more forward angle but along the same initial path as a little follow.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think that is where the distinctions are. A little above, a little right, hard hit, a little less hard and so forth. Some pretty small variations in all these changed things substantially

With VP4 it's easy to keep the CB contact point exactly the same while changing the speed of the shot - that's what I did with the 4- and 5-rail shots. So the change in force of the hit alone makes all the difference shown.

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

The center ball shots are played softly enough that the ball is probably rolling smoothly on the cloth when it gets to the OB. The follow shots show curve after contact but are played at high speed on slippery cloth. The diagrams seem correct to me.

It would seem to me the 4th rail return should come longer with higher speed than lower speeds.

What am I missing?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It would seem to me the 4th rail return should come longer with higher speed than lower speeds.

What am I missing?

With higher speed the ball curves forward later (see the dashed lines below).

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

With higher speed the ball curves forward later (see the dashed lines below).

pj
chgo

Sorry Patrick, I get that coming off the 3rd rail with speed the rebound is greater. The 4th rail is what I'm looking at.

Its my experience that the greater the speed the longer the return angle on the 4th rail. Playing this pattern with a soft stroke, the angle opens up more.

Maybe I'm confusing the difference in the 4th being the short rail vs being the bottom long rail.

I'll take a look on my table in the morning.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Its my experience that the greater the speed the longer the return angle on the 4th rail. Playing this pattern with a soft stroke, the angle opens up more.

Are you taking into account the very different approach angle to the 4th rail? See the yellow lines in the pic below.

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

I can't duplicate the lines on my carom table even eliminating the OB, but I concede the 4th rail return does come longer @ higher speed.

Thanks again.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I can't duplicate the lines on my carom table even eliminating the OB

How do they differ? And how do you think your cloth differs from the "tournament" cloth modeled in VP4 (faster/slower)?

I don't know how carom cushions differ...

pj <- curious
chgo

 

[3kushn]

How do they differ? And how do you think your cloth differs from the "tournament" cloth modeled in VP4 (faster/slower)?

I don't know how carom cushions differ...

pj <- curious
chgo

Sorry Pat I can't answer this with absolute facts. Since Bob plays both games well enough and studied these things way more than most, he's one that might be able to answer better than me.

I'm very rarely seen on a pool table. Pool tables play shorter. A very strong player once tried to explain why to me, but it didn't make sense. Had something to do with the smaller table shortened things up. I won't name him but he's very well known here in the US.

As far as my table, I try to maintain it to play as close to new cloth as possible. My several sets of balls are always cleaned and polished. No wax. Polished.

IMO there should be no difference in the angles. If you remember KingCobra bragging about making Diamond tables playing to the carom table numbers. I don't know if they got it right but at least they recognized the difference.

In lieu of Bob jumping back in, take a simple look at the Corner 5 System on your favorite table. The 3rd rail I predict comes short. It will come shorter than the system says. 4th rail contact will be around 1/2 diamond shorter +- than the system.

On an everyday typical room table with dirty cloth and balls the 4th rail can be more than a diamond. That's why I say to test on your favorite table. I assume its better than that.

Wish it wasn't so.

Here's basically what I get. Speed didn't make a terrible amount of difference. Couple inches from the spot.

 

[JC]

Just hit the thing with a confident inside english stroke medium speed and track the cue ball right off the head rail to the face of the six ball.

You guys are making this way too hard.


JC