Opinions needed on Gold Crown IV setup

SpeedStar

SpeedStar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I replaced my Olhausen grand champion with a GCIV last weekend and have a few issues with the instalation and setup I got from the guys who did it.

First, they didn't use a Machinist level, only a stanley carpeter's level and it shows. I checked the slate by placing a clean cueball on a pane of glass at each diamond to see how level it was, all four corners slope inward. Should I expect it to be so level that a ball would not slowly run off of a pane of glass?

Second, the cushions have a distinct line that can be seen and felt through the centennial fabric where the cushion meets the rail.
Is this normal? My Olhausen didn't have this.
Should there be something between the fabric and the cushion to buffer this?

Third, the fabric is very wavy like it was pulled at an angle and a differing tensions around the bed. This makes the grain very apparent and when the ball dies it tends to go offline and follow the grain. Am I being picky there, or is that normal?

Fourth, it doesn't feel as solid as I would have hoped for. It has drop pockets, and if you bump against the rail with a little force you can see and hear the balls rattle in the pockets. I had a Gold crown III years ago and I remeber it being rock solid. Anyone else with experience with the GCIV please tell me if this is to be expected or did I just get a lousy install crew?

Thanks for any help. I do love the table though...
 
I am in San Diego, Ca.

My last install was done by Willie Olhausen, he did a good job so that is what I am expecting with this table too. I just wonder if I am expecting too much? Are these issues related to the install or the table?
 
SpeedStar said:
I replaced my Olhausen grand champion with a GCIV last weekend and have a few issues with the instalation and setup I got from the guys who did it.

First, they didn't use a Machinist level, only a stanley carpeter's level and it shows. I checked the slate by placing a clean cueball on a pane of glass at each diamond to see how level it was, all four corners slope inward. Should I expect it to be so level that a ball would not slowly run off of a pane of glass?

Second, the cushions have a distinct line that can be seen and felt through the centennial fabric where the cushion meets the rail.
Is this normal? My Olhausen didn't have this.
Should there be something between the fabric and the cushion to buffer this?

Third, the fabric is very wavy like it was pulled at an angle and a differing tensions around the bed. This makes the grain very apparent and when the ball dies it tends to go offline and follow the grain. Am I being picky there, or is that normal?

Fourth, it doesn't feel as solid as I would have hoped for. It has drop pockets, and if you bump against the rail with a little force you can see and hear the balls rattle in the pockets. I had a Gold crown III years ago and I remeber it being rock solid. Anyone else with experience with the GCIV please tell me if this is to be expected or did I just get a lousy install crew?

Thanks for any help. I do love the table though...
Click to expand...
It does sound as if your table was set up poorly.

When you mentioned a pane of glass, it made me wonder, how parallel is the top of the glass to the bottom. I am not sure that this would be an accurate test.

Tracy
 
I got the idea for the glass test on the forum. I also thought about how true the glass surface was too. I rotated it around when the ball would run off and got the same results so I guess it might work. Would have been better to do this on the slate before the fabric went down.
 
Played onGCIVlast 4yrs best rolling table of my life, banked short only neg call your local rooms use their mechanic, or track down Ernesto Dominguez the word is he is THE BEST, PAY THE EXPERT YOU SHOULD BE SATISFIED.
 
Gc Iv

My GC IV came from a WPBA tour stop and has been setup in my room since January 03. It has stayed level and is solid as a rock. It sounds like your table installation may have been a little less than perfect. It would be well worth it to bring in a good mechanic and have him tweak the table. It will make all the difference in the world. Then you will be satisfied in your decision to get the GC IV. Good luck.
 
That is what I thought. When I asked they guy if he was going to use a machinist level and he said, "what is that?", I should have known.

Any input on the line on the rails? It is where the rubber cushion meets the rail. 5 out of six rails have a very distinct line that can be seen and felt through the centennial fabric. Should there be a buffer material between these two? It is not the feather strip or excess material as I watched him cut this off.
 
All of those problems can be taken care of by a quality table mechanic. Sounds like you got a hack installer. With all worsted wool cloths, the felt has to pulled pulled at the same tension around the table to eliminate that wavy look, which not only looks poor but effects playability.
As for the line between rail and bed, only thing I can think of is that the felt was not trimmed to stay in the little groove under the rail causing the rail to sit a little higher than normal. You say that you watched him trim it but if he accidentally got some staples up above that groove it wouldn't matter how he trimmed it. Does the ball hop or pinch when coming off those rails?
 
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the only problem i see with my GCIV is that the side pockets spit the balls out. i have a terrible time with this, scares me to even shoot at a small angle into the side pockets. straight in is no problem, of course.

and on the break, balls will hit the side pockets at an angle, and just pop out, they just dont want to fall in.

this really is a big problem for me. so much to the point that one day i might even start to look at a diamond pro table.

DCP
 
NineBallNut said:
All of those problems can be taken care of by a quality table mechanic.

As for the line between rail and bed, only thing I can think of is that the felt was not trimmed to stay in the little groove under the rail causing the rail to sit a little higher than normal. You say that you watched him trim it but if he accidentally got some staples up above that groove it wouldn't matter how he trimmed it. Does the ball hop or pinch when coming off those rails?
Click to expand...

The line is actually on the top of the cushion, about 1" in from the Rail top. I am sure it is the joint of the rubber cushion and the rail.
I doubt it would be visible with a regular cloth, but it is very visible with the worsted cloth. I was wondering if there should be a buffer material to smooth this transition from rubber to rail?
Maybe another layer of fabric or tape?
 
SpeedStar said:
The line is actually on the top of the cushion, about 1" in from the Rail top. I am sure it is the joint of the rubber cushion and the rail.
I doubt it would be visible with a regular cloth, but it is very visible with the worsted cloth. I was wondering if there should be a buffer material to smooth this transition from rubber to rail?
Maybe another layer of fabric or tape?
Click to expand...

Now I see what your saying. Chances are there could be a little glue residue up there where the wood and rubber meet. I find that a lot when felting rails these days. It would not necessarily show on regular cloth but simonis, centennial, and simular cloths show every flaw. I usually trim those areas with a razor blade and sometimes some light touch up sanding to smooth it out.
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
the only problem i see with my GCIV is that the side pockets spit the balls out. i have a terrible time with this, scares me to even shoot at a small angle into the side pockets. straight in is no problem, of course.

and on the break, balls will hit the side pockets at an angle, and just pop out, they just dont want to fall in.

this really is a big problem for me. so much to the point that one day i might even start to look at a diamond pro table.

DCP
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That is wierd, the only time I have balls spit out of the sides on mine is if I slam them into the hole. Same with the GCIV's at the local hall.
 
SpeedStar said:
I replaced my Olhausen grand champion with a GCIV last weekend and have a few issues with the instalation and setup I got from the guys who did it.

First, they didn't use a Machinist level, only a stanley carpeter's level and it shows. I checked the slate by placing a clean cueball on a pane of glass at each diamond to see how level it was, all four corners slope inward. Should I expect it to be so level that a ball would not slowly run off of a pane of glass?

Second, the cushions have a distinct line that can be seen and felt through the centennial fabric where the cushion meets the rail.
Is this normal? My Olhausen didn't have this.
Should there be something between the fabric and the cushion to buffer this?

Third, the fabric is very wavy like it was pulled at an angle and a differing tensions around the bed. This makes the grain very apparent and when the ball dies it tends to go offline and follow the grain. Am I being picky there, or is that normal?

Fourth, it doesn't feel as solid as I would have hoped for. It has drop pockets, and if you bump against the rail with a little force you can see and hear the balls rattle in the pockets. I had a Gold crown III years ago and I remeber it being rock solid. Anyone else with experience with the GCIV please tell me if this is to be expected or did I just get a lousy install crew?

Thanks for any help. I do love the table though...
Click to expand...


Call Terry at Barstools and Billiards in San Marcos.
He installed the table I bought from them a year ago.
I am one picky guy, and he got it as good as it can be.
He was here yesterday installing new Simonis 860 on my table,
and we talked about how the fabric MUST be pulled at the same tension
all around the table or it will get wavy, and throw a slow roll off line.
Same thing with the fabric on the rails, if pulled too tight in some places it will be dimpled and give weird behavior.
He's the guy who installs the tables for the WPBA Viejas tournament, so he's got to know how to do it right. I know he has a machinists level, and uses it, because when I saw it, I ordered one of my own from Starrett.

Whoever did your table, you should DEMAND that they do it over, the right way. And if they do not, then publish their name and the problems you have had on the APA bulleting board in San Diego, and here, and anywhere else you can think of. We don't need hacks in this biz.

I had nothing but problems with Olhausen installers in San Diego. That's one of the reasons I upgraded to my GCIV was to get away from Olhausen installers here.
 
I would suggest Hot Shot Billiards out of Van Nuys California. He'll charge you a little extra for the drive, but you will not find an installer with more attention to detail.

And short of warped slate, you will find no one who can get a table more level than Gibbi can. He carries multiple machinist levels in multiple sizes....

I would never have anyone else set up a table for me.

The problem with going to Ernesto, is he is tough to get ahold of, and unless his mind is into it (and this is a 50/50 shot mind you...unless you happen to be Hard Times) he will often produce substandard work.
 
SpeedStar said:
I replaced my Olhausen grand champion with a GCIV last weekend and have a few issues with the instalation and setup I got from the guys who did it.

First, they didn't use a Machinist level, only a stanley carpeter's level and it shows. I checked the slate by placing a clean cueball on a pane of glass at each diamond to see how level it was, all four corners slope inward. Should I expect it to be so level that a ball would not slowly run off of a pane of glass?


Second, the cushions have a distinct line that can be seen and felt through the centennial fabric where the cushion meets the rail.
Is this normal? My Olhausen didn't have this.
Should there be something between the fabric and the cushion to buffer this?

Third, the fabric is very wavy like it was pulled at an angle and a differing tensions around the bed. This makes the grain very apparent and when the ball dies it tends to go offline and follow the grain. Am I being picky there, or is that normal?

Fourth, it doesn't feel as solid as I would have hoped for. It has drop pockets, and if you bump against the rail with a little force you can see and hear the balls rattle in the pockets. I had a Gold crown III years ago and I remeber it being rock solid. Anyone else with experience with the GCIV please tell me if this is to be expected or did I just get a lousy install crew?



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Thanks for any help. I do love the table though...
Click to expand...



1. A machinists level is a great way to go however it is more important when setting up the table to let is set for several days and level it again. The floor supports, carpet, padding, etc. needs to settle.

2.The rails should be machined to the proper height so when the rail rubber is applied the rubber is flush with the top of the rails. The various rubber manufacturers have their own specifications including height, angle, specific gravity, etc. If the height and angle do not match there may be a gap on top of the rail or the rubber may fit even be higher. Even if it fits evenly, it still may not be correct. The point of the rubber that a ball touches should be 1 13/32 inches high. A good way to test this is to roll a striped ball against a rail at moderate speed. If it reverses its rotation within two or three inches of leaving the rail it is probably correct. If it does not change rotation until six or ten inches after leaving the rail it is not correct.(Try this on the tables at you favorite pool room---it really effects banking). By the way, Freddy The Beard did not include this in his book.

3. I haven't installed a GCIV, but I have seen tables assembled with the washers between the legs and the base instead of just under the bolts. This could make the table much less stable.

If anyone wants a copy of some rail/rubber specs, just PM me with your e-mail address. I tried to post this but the file is to big.

PS. I make my living selling e-mail addresses. LOL
 
Don't forget TableMechanic

Assuming the origninal dealer is not going to put this right (Which they damn well should!) I can also heartily recommend AZB's own TableMechanic (Steve) who I believe now does all the Hardtimes table maintenance rather than Ernesto.
 
Thanks for the input guys. I really appreciate it. I have spoken to the owner of the store and he is on my side. He is going to have his top guy come down and re-assemble the table, and level with a machinist level this time.

Should the frame be leveled first and then the slates trued and leveled before the fabric goes on the slate? I assume that is the correct method.

Any input on what to make sure to look out for this time around?

Thanks for the help.
 
You should talk with the guy when he gets there and voice your concerns.

Then ask him what is the best method to accomplish what you are looking for as an end result. You will know if what he says is correct or bull by the way he addresses your points of displeasure with the initial install.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
3. I haven't installed a GCIV, but I have seen tables assembled with the washers between the legs and the base instead of just under the bolts. This could make the table much less stable.

PS. I make my living selling e-mail addresses. LOL
Click to expand...

Tennesseejoe - Please give me some more detail about the washer placement you mentioned.

I remember that that legs where sitting directly against the frame bed but there was a wood pad, about .25" thick on top of the legs.
Then a 90 degree metal bracket with two large bolts and washers that connected the legs to the frame.

Thanks...
 
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