Other things that cause unwanted deflection besides the shaft

[Thomas McKane]

With the constant talk about LD shafts and the dreaded cue and/or object ball deflection, I thought I'd list a few things that I've noticed that also cause this in my experience.

1. English on the cue ball of course, goes without saying. Got to practice that center ball hit, over and over.

2. Worn cloth with very little friction. When I play on a new cloth, I find that I get very little unwanted skids, especially when the cue and object ball are close together. Draw shots make this even worse on a worn cloth as the object ball is thrown faster at impact and, with very little friction to hold it back, it can squirt easily and you'll miss the pocket by a surprising amount.

3. Bad tip. If the tip loses it shape, especially when it gets flat, you will get off angle hits and the cue ball will deflect at seemingly random angles. KEEP YOUR TIP IN PERFECT CONDITION.

4. Tight hold of the butt of the cue. When you tighten up on the grip, you lose the natural pendulum swing that allows the cue to stay straight during the swing. Any side to side motion that may be in your stroke is then magnified, which makes you more tense and angry and you grip even more trying to compensate making it worse. Relax, walk away, take a deep breath, then come back and loosen it all up and get that silky stroke back and the cue ball will start behaving again.

5. Bad body alignment. I get lazy, especially when tired, and come down on the shot wrong from the outset...knowing it's slightly off and think to myself, screw it, I'll adjust. But then your muscle memory takes over and you don't adjust and you miss. I do this in 1P on the break too often to count and I always think to myself after the horrible results, why didn't you get the %@!#* back up and get back down on the shot at the right angle. Lazy, that's the reason.

6. Recently polished balls, or new balls in general with the wax on. Takes an hour or more for them to settle down, but eventually they do. Like shooting on ice for a bit, touch and go for sure.

7. Humidity. I live in the deep south and on very humid days the stickiness of the balls cause all kinds of crazy stuff at contact. Compensating as it fluctuates is key.

Anything else people have seen?

 

[His Boy Elroy]

I think you might have misunderstood part of the discussion of normal deflection vs. low deflection shafts.

No one is saying either shaft CAUSES deflection. It's more of a question of whether the reduction of deflection that occurs in low deflection shafts aids when un-intentional deflection occurs and whether the cue ball is easier to control with one cue or the other when deliberate deflection is applied.

Let's assume your playing in an air-conditioned room with good cloth and a good tip and the balls have not been polished too recently. If you're shooting with center-ball and you don't come perfectly straight forward with the cue, however slight the crookedness, it will cause pivot-spin. When spin is applied to the cue-ball it always causes deflection. If the shot is slow enough, the OB will also swerve after deflecting.

Some players believe that coming forward perfectly straight with the cue consistently is a realistic expectation and is performed by most professionals. Some take the opposite view and believe that coming forward with the cue is an unrealistic expectation and few, if any professionals attempt it. They believe that most, if not every pro, deliberately applies deflection to the cue-ball in a case of, "I'm gonna control deflection and swerve before deflection and spin control me."

I'll assume from the question that you're a beginner. I hope after that very brief introduction you'll be able to enter an AZ shot-making thread with just a little broader perspective. Just remember.... before you enter, put on your hard-hat!

 

[hang-the-9]

With the constant talk about LD shafts and the dreaded cue and/or object ball deflection, I thought I'd list a few things that I've noticed that also cause this in my experience.

1. English on the cue ball of course, goes without saying. Got to practice that center ball hit, over and over.

2. Worn cloth with very little friction. When I play on a new cloth, I find that I get very little unwanted skids, especially when the cue and object ball are close together. Draw shots make this even worse on a worn cloth as the object ball is thrown faster at impact and, with very little friction to hold it back, it can squirt easily and you'll miss the pocket by a surprising amount.

3. Bad tip. If the tip loses it shape, especially when it gets flat, you will get off angle hits and the cue ball will deflect at seemingly random angles. KEEP YOUR TIP IN PERFECT CONDITION.

4. Tight hold of the butt of the cue. When you tighten up on the grip, you lose the natural pendulum swing that allows the cue to stay straight during the swing. Any side to side motion that may be in your stroke is then magnified, which makes you more tense and angry and you grip even more trying to compensate making it worse. Relax, walk away, take a deep breath, then come back and loosen it all up and get that silky stroke back and the cue ball will start behaving again.

5. Bad body alignment. I get lazy, especially when tired, and come down on the shot wrong from the outset...knowing it's slightly off and think to myself, screw it, I'll adjust. But then your muscle memory takes over and you don't adjust and you miss. I do this in 1P on the break too often to count and I always think to myself after the horrible results, why didn't you get the %@!#* back up and get back down on the shot at the right angle. Lazy, that's the reason.

6. Recently polished balls, or new balls in general with the wax on. Takes an hour or more for them to settle down, but eventually they do. Like shooting on ice for a bit, touch and go for sure.

7. Humidity. I live in the deep south and on very humid days the stickiness of the balls cause all kinds of crazy stuff at contact. Compensating as it fluctuates is key.

Anything else people have seen?

Those are all things that affect how the cueball and other balls react, but none are causes of deflection as we all know it.

This is more of a post about things that may cause you to miss or mess up position.

But all true, just under the wrong topic

 

[Patrick Johnson]

cue and/or object ball deflection

I assume you mean cue ball "squirt" and object ball throw.

1. English on the cue ball of course, goes without saying. Got to practice that center ball hit, over and over.

Yep, that's the cause of CB squirt and spin-induced OB throw.

2. Worn cloth with very little friction. When I play on a new cloth, I find that I get very little unwanted skids, especially when the cue and object ball are close together. Draw shots make this even worse on a worn cloth as the object ball is thrown faster at impact and, with very little friction to hold it back, it can squirt easily and you'll miss the pocket by a surprising amount.

3. Bad tip. If the tip loses it shape, especially when it gets flat, you will get off angle hits and the cue ball will deflect at seemingly random angles. KEEP YOUR TIP IN PERFECT CONDITION.

4. Tight hold of the butt of the cue. When you tighten up on the grip, you lose the natural pendulum swing that allows the cue to stay straight during the swing. Any side to side motion that may be in your stroke is then magnified, which makes you more tense and angry and you grip even more trying to compensate making it worse. Relax, walk away, take a deep breath, then come back and loosen it all up and get that silky stroke back and the cue ball will start behaving again.

5. Bad body alignment. I get lazy, especially when tired, and come down on the shot wrong from the outset...knowing it's slightly off and think to myself, screw it, I'll adjust. But then your muscle memory takes over and you don't adjust and you miss. I do this in 1P on the break too often to count and I always think to myself after the horrible results, why didn't you get the %@!#* back up and get back down on the shot at the right angle. Lazy, that's the reason.

There's some good advice in this, but none of these have any effect on squirt or throw.

6. Recently polished balls, or new balls in general with the wax on. Takes an hour or more for them to settle down, but eventually they do. Like shooting on ice for a bit, touch and go for sure.

7. Humidity. I live in the deep south and on very humid days the stickiness of the balls cause all kinds of crazy stuff at contact. Compensating as it fluctuates is key.

Polished balls and humidity can affect OB throw, but not squirt.

The causes and effects of squirt and throw are well known and pretty simple:
- squirt is caused by hitting the CB off center to the side
- throw is caused by balls rubbing against each other

That's pretty much it.

pj
chgo

 

[cuebuyer4u]

Do you guys think a really deep follow through can cause extra squirt or deflection? OR the speed of the stroke?

I never chime in on these threads as I really hate to have anything besides shape and ball pocketing to think about but I feel like sometimes ill shorten my follow through up on long shots with english like as if I know the ball will travel straighter. and when i go to curve a ball a little to make one i ise a deeper follow through......

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Some take the opposite view and believe that coming forward with the cue is an unrealistic expectation and few, if any professionals attempt it. They believe that most, if not every pro, deliberately applies deflection to the cue-ball in a case of, "I'm gonna control deflection and swerve before deflection and spin control me."

Some believe the moon is made of cheese.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

... none of these have any effect on squirt

PJ,

I think when most pool players say "deflection," they mean "net CB deflection" or the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA squerve). Net CB deflection is affected by many factors.

For those interested, 37 different effects related to squirt, swerve, and throw can be found, with supporting resources, here:

squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Do you guys think a really deep follow through can cause extra squirt or deflection? OR the speed of the stroke?

More follow through is usually associated with more CB speed. A faster CB has delayed swerve, yielding more net CB deflection.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ,

I think when most pool players say "deflection," they mean "net CB deflection" or the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA squerve). Net CB deflection is affected by many factors.

For those interested, 37 different effects related to squirt, swerve, and throw can be found, with supporting resources, here:

squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

Yes, good point. Items 1 (spin), 2 (cloth friction), 6 (ball friction) and 7 (ball/cloth friction) each have an effect on swerve.

pj
chgo

 

[Keith Jawahir]

Maybe it was just a bad tip, but I felt like the Zan tip I tried on my cue actually added to the deflection. Something about it definitely altered the way I had to aim my shots.