outside english vs inside english

[swest]

SpiderWebComm,

If you are inclined to discuss the meaning of your assertion that, "Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots", I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

I'm assuming that you are saying that there's something beyond the mechanical differences outside vs. inside english have on a shot, once squirt is accounted for and you're making the cue ball contact the object ball where you mean for it to - something that our brains are 'seeing' differently for the two shots.

?

- s.west

p.s. And the differences I'm thinking of are related to CIT/SIT...

 

[riedmich]

Do you mean natural english and counter english?

 

[swest]

Yes.

Just a slight difference in terms.

For a cut to the left, 'Outside English' puts counterclockwise spin on the cue ball, while 'Inside English' puts clockwise spin on the cue ball (viewed from above). And the opposite for a cut to the right.

As far as the origin of the these terms vs 'Natural' and 'Counter', I think 'Inside English' is called that because you're cueing on the contact side of the cue ball... while for 'Outside English' you're cueing away from the contact side of the cue ball. But origin of terms is for a different discussion.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

SpiderWebComm,

If you are inclined to discuss the meaning of your assertion that, "Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots", I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

I'm assuming that you are saying that there's something beyond the mechanical differences outside vs. inside english have on a shot, once squirt is accounted for and you're making the cue ball contact the object ball where you mean for it to - something that our brains are 'seeing' differently for the two shots.

?

- s.west

p.s. And the differences I'm thinking of are related to CIT/SIT...

In general, players prefer stroking for draw than topspin and outside rather than inside english. The outside comes in part from visuals and aim (trying to slice a ball) and part from CIT benefits (gearing balls in) and from SIT benefits (cue ball roll).

Is that what you're referring to here?

 

[riedmich]

OK. Maybe my comment doesn't hit the answer well enough. But one main difference between outside and inside english is the result when the cueball hits the rail. The results are very different in the angle and the speed the cueball leaves the rail. Is that different effect asked for?

Sorry if my answer is in a wrong context.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In general, players prefer stroking for draw than topspin and outside rather than inside english. The outside comes in part from visuals and aim (trying to slice a ball) and part from CIT benefits (gearing balls in) and from SIT benefits (cue ball roll).

I think low and outside spin are preferred simply because they're more familiar, because they come up more often. That's because we're most often shooting toward a corner pocket at a ball that's relatively near that corner, but don't want the cue ball continuing in that direction (because most of the table is in the other direction).

pj
chgo

 

[swest]

What I am 'looking for' is for SpiderWebComm to amplify on a comment he made in another thread about 'perception'.

This thread was simply an invitation to him to share his ideas.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What I am 'looking for' is for SpiderWebComm to amplify on a comment he made in another thread about 'perception'.

This thread was simply an invitation to him to share his ideas.

PJ Yes Man:

Of course there are differences beyond mechanical factors such as CIT/SIT.

Here's how it works:

You and I can meet up and pick 10 random pool players. I'll setup a few random shots and ask each to shoot them with both outside and inside english. I'm willing to bet that the make % for outside is more than the make % for inside. If you ask those same 10 players why they missed more to the inside, I doubt they'll say "lack of practice." They'll likely say, "It's a harder shot to execute."

The reason for this has ZERO to do with CIT or SIT -- if a player's perception and the way the see the shot don't change, outside should be the same as inside, right? If the player can figure squirt and throw for outside, then they can for inside, right? LD shafts equalize misses on both sides of the CB, right? Of course not.

Sure, different spin throws the OB differently; however, people tend to "spray" difficult inside english shots versus difficult outside english shots-- it's not the SIT that causes those types of misses. I also think the degree of misses (distance from pocket center) of outside english shots is significantly less than inside english shots of the same distance/difficulty.

The CB doesn't have a clue if you're hitting inside versus outside. The only variable is the human mind controlling the cue and the picture/perception your eyes send to your brain (outside of the difference of the throw). So, if a player can figure the squirt and throw aspects of a shot in one way, that does not mean they can "see" the shot the other way. In fact, almost everyone doesn't / can't.

If you make a public poll asking players which type of shot is more difficult: A medium to long cut, one with two tips of inside versus two tips of outside, there's no way people think the inside english shot is easier.

PJ is right in that players shoot outside more than inside, but it's not entirely do to ball layouts (more table the other way). It's also because people perceive outside english shots as being the higher% path to take (potting-wise, I'm referring to level of difficulty to execute).

I'm yet to speak with one pool player of any real level who says they perceive inside shots identically to outside shots.

Let me ask you this>>>

Do you think there's no difference (from a player's perspective) on inside english shots versus outside english shots? Outside of the differences of SIT imparted by each, do you think the two are totally equal in difficulty?

I'm trying to figure out if you think the two are equal, and if you don't -- if you think experience/practice is the culprit versus perception. I've shot countless inside shots over tons of years and tons of matches. Practice isn't the problem. My practice has told me they're just harder to execute because I see them differently.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. Spider.

I agree with the web that you have woven. I too have been shooting with both in & outside english for more years than I should admit. I learned outside first & shot with it for a good while before introducing myself to inside. I now shoot the same cut shot equally well with either in or out & I now would prefer to shoot it with inside for reasons CJ has eluded to other than effectively making the pocket 'bigger' & that reason is to rein in the cue ball so to speak. (I have always understood the combination of the cut (contact) induced throw & the spin induced throw being an additive affect for inside as opposed to being an opposing affect for outside)

As to your sight perception, heres a tid bit.
In golf, when lining up a driver it is very much dependent on eye
dominance & perception. A person can set up, ask them where they are aiming, they answer, you hold the club, exactly & 'perfectly' as they have it. You ask them to step behind the club & their reaction is WOW! They are no where near lined up where they thought they were. They may not have the same problem with an iron. The reason is that the leading edge of a driver is slightly ahead of the shaft line, to the left for a right handed player & most irons' leading edge is slightly behind the shaft line to the right for a right handed player.

I know the analogy is not the same but it is another example of a seeing mis-perception.

What did mis while I was 'typing' this crap?
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have always understood the combination of the cut (contact) induced throw & the spin induced throw being an additive affect for inside as opposed to being an opposing affect for outside)

Inside english usually reduces throw too, but for the opposite reason that outside english does. Outside english reduces throw by decreasing the CB/OB surfaces rubbing speed (ideally to zero), and inside english reduces throw by increasing the rubbing speed. Too-fast rubbing speed reduces throw in the same way that a fast-spinning car tire "peels out" on the pavement - friction between rubbing surfaces (the cause of throw) is reduced by excessive speed.

How much sidespin is too much? 50% of maximum sidespin (about 1/4" tip offset from centerball) is too much inside spin for every cut shot, and that amount drops gradually to zero inside spin as the cut goes from almost straight-in to a half-ball cut.

For cuts thinner than half-ball you actually have to add outside spin to produce maximum throw (this is a little-known reason to be wary of using outside spin to decrease throw for those cuts).

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Mr. Spider.

I agree with the web that you have woven. I too have been shooting with both in & outside english for more years than I should admit. I learned outside first & shot with it for a good while before introducing myself to inside. I now shoot the same cut shot equally well with either in or out & I now would prefer to shoot it with inside for reasons CJ has eluded to other than effectively making the pocket 'bigger' & that reason is to rein in the cue ball so to speak. (I have always understood the combination of the cut (contact) induced throw & the spin induced throw being an additive affect for inside as opposed to being an opposing affect for outside)

As to your sight perception, heres a tid bit.
In golf, when lining up a driver it is very much dependent on eye
dominance & perception. A person can set up, ask them where they are aiming, they answer, you hold the club, exactly & 'perfectly' as they have it. You ask them to step behind the club & their reaction is WOW! They are no where near lined up where they thought they were. They may not have the same problem with an iron. The reason is that the leading edge of a driver is slightly ahead of the shaft line, to the left for a right handed player & most irons' leading edge is slightly behind the shaft line to the right for a right handed player.

I know the analogy is not the same but it is another example of a seeing mis-perception.

What did mis while I was 'typing' this crap?
Rick

Just as I believe everyone has a weak cut side (either due to eye dominance or technique that dictates a more comfy head position), people don't perceive english directions exactly the same.

I put a little thought into PJ's comment about one being shot more than the other, and although he's correct-- there's more to it than that.

If people perceived outside and inside english identically, shooting outside english shots would actually be practice for inside english shots because the only variable would be to compensate for the spin. One would just adjust for the different spin effect and that'd be it; however, it's nowhere near that simple.

I'm just surprised how Swest doesn't know this or, maybe, trying to figure out what he really thinks--- or actually, if he's doing this to lob up another volley between PJ and I---- but that isn't happening.

The bottom line is inside english is clearly more difficult to execute among any random sample of pool players and I'd bet on such. Anything more detailed than that is picking fly shit out of pepper and it doesn't interest me enough to break-down further.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Just as I believe everyone has a weak cut side (either due to eye dominance or technique that dictates a more comfy head position), people don't perceive english directions exactly the same.

I put a little thought into PJ's comment about one being shot more than the other, and although he's correct-- there's more to it than that.

If people perceived outside and inside english identically, shooting outside english shots would actually be practice for inside english shots because the only variable would be to compensate for the spin. One would just adjust for the different spin effect and that'd be it; however, it's nowhere near that simple.

I'm just surprised how Swest doesn't know this or, maybe, trying to figure out what he really thinks--- or actually, if he's doing this to lob up another volley between PJ and I---- but that isn't happening.

The bottom line is inside english is clearly more difficult to execute among any random sample of pool players and I'd bet on such. Anything more detailed than that is picking fly shit out of pepper and it doesn't interest me enough to break-down further.

Good on ya!

I agree. Minutia can turn into a terrible killer of many a good thing.

Married couple:

Okay John, If it was only once & it was spontaneous, I can forgive you.

Well Mary, It was twice, but I didn't plan it the second time.

 

[stan shuffett]

Outside spin and inside spin, IMO, absolutely give the shooter different looks.

Outside spin is natural and most players evolve into angling their cues for outside spin which is quite friendly to the contact point.

Inside spin presents more of a problem because one's cue is often straight or much less angled at set, making the inside spin shots quite a bit more challenging.

Just notice the angle of your cue for outside vs inside spin shots. An angled cue can almost take you to the contact point. A straighter cue with inside spin means a lot more guess work in obtaining a proper shot line.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A straighter cue with inside spin means a lot more guess work in obtaining a proper shot line.

Why would the cue be straighter with inside spin? Seems to me the opposite would be true - with outside spin squirt and throw tend to cancel each other.

pj <- not stalking you, Stan
chgo

 

[stan shuffett]

Why would the cue be straighter with inside spin? Seems to me the opposite would be true - with outside spin squirt and throw tend to cancel each other.

pj <- not stalking you, Stan
chgo

NO problem, Pj.

Pj, For the most we are more comfortable with outside spin shots and we shoot more of them. We learn to angle our cues to deal with outside spin. Many do not know they even do this. It is a form of BHE.

Since we shoot fewer inside spin shots, an angling of one's cue does not happen as naturally. That's part of it, IMO, and learned from observation.

Stan Shuffett

 

[swest]

I'm just surprised how Swest doesn't know this or, maybe, trying to figure out what he really thinks--- or actually, if he's doing this to lob up another volley between PJ and I---- but that isn't happening.

I haven't been able to monitor this thread (been a busy day at work), so I'm just seeing some of this.

I had no ulterior motive for starting this thread. I honestly just wanted to hear what you had to say about the subject since we had such an acrimonious encounter the last time it came up.

Really. Nothing else, no lobbing, no gotchas, nothing.

Now I have to read all of the foregoing to catch up... (and I may not be able to join the discussion until much later this afternoon, or tonight).

- s.west

 

[Patrick Johnson]

NO problem, Pj.

Pj, For the most we are more comfortable with outside spin shots and we shoot more of them. We learn to angle our cues to deal with outside spin. Many do not know they even do this. It is a form of BHE.

Since we shoot fewer inside spin shots, an angling of one's cue does not happen as naturally. That's part of it, IMO, and learned from observation.

Stan Shuffett

That agrees with my observations too, Stan.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I haven't been able to monitor this thread (been a busy day at work), so I'm just seeing some of this.

I had no ulterior motive for starting this thread. I honestly just wanted to hear what you had to say about the subject since we had such an acrimonious encounter the last time it came up.

Really. Nothing else, no lobbing, no gotchas, nothing.

Now I have to read all of the foregoing to catch up... (and I may not be able to join the discussion until much later this afternoon, or tonight).

- s.west

With that said...I apologize for launching at you. Maybe we can have better discussions in the future.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[ENGLISH!]

NO problem, Pj.

Pj, For the most we are more comfortable with outside spin shots and we shoot more of them. We learn to angle our cues to deal with outside spin. Many do not know they even do this. It is a form of BHE.

Since we shoot fewer inside spin shots, an angling of one's cue does not happen as naturally. That's part of it, IMO, and learned from observation.

Stan Shuffett

Mr. Shuffett,

For 46 yrs I've been shooting with all englishes. I am a 'feel' player & have fiddled with & am intrigued by CTE. Do you think I could convert to CTE & if so which version woild you suggest for me?

Thanks in advance,
Rick

 

[swest]

Ok, I'm finally home, and I can read this thread.

So, let's see what we have here...

Do you think there's no difference (from a player's perspective) on inside english shots versus outside english shots? Outside of the differences of SIT imparted by each, do you think the two are totally equal in difficulty?

I'm trying to figure out if you think the two are equal, and if you don't -- if you think experience/practice is the culprit versus perception. I've shot countless inside shots over tons of years and tons of matches. Practice isn't the problem. My practice has told me they're just harder to execute because I see them differently.

If I visualize most of the possible variations of shots (limiting the shot to a 30-degree spot shot from about 2.5 feet away), and elicit a confidence score from myself, I rank them like this (where '+' = confident, 'o' = neutral, '-' = unconfident (is that a word?)):

left cut, low, outside ++
left cut, low, inside -
left cut, middle, outside o
left cut, middle, inside o
left cut, high, outside ++
left cut, high, inside +

and

right cut, low, outside -
right cut, low, inside +
right cut, middle, outside o
right cut, middle, inside o
right cut, high, outside o
right cut, high, inside +

Now these are just gut feelings (and not made while standing in front of a pool table :embarrassed2, but yes, definitely, I get different feelings of confidence about my ability to execute these various shots. A curious thing to me is that, although I would have said that I am more accurate when shooting left cuts than right, I definitely have a sense of confidence about shooting the right cut, low, inside, for some reason... don't know why I think that, but I'm going to give it a go at league on Wednesday.

My answer to your question is, unequivocally, yes, I feel a difference in confidence about my ability to execute these shot variations.

However, going back to your comment from the other thread (that I started this thread with - "Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots") I'm not sure what that means... which is why I challenged it originally. To put it another way, still couched in terms of confidence, I am more confident shooting a 30-degree cut shot than I am shooting a 65-degree cut shot, but does that mean that my "brain perceives 65-degree cut shots DIFFERENTLY than 30-degree cut shots"? I don't think so. But 65-degree cut shots are harder (at least for me) to make.

Perhaps this is just a semantic issue.

I have some other scenarios I want to post about, but I want to put them in with cuetable (or some other visual aid). Can someone point me to directions for doing that?

Thanks.