Overthinking vs. letting it fly...

[WillyCornbread]

I haven't played pool really at all for the last 16 years or so, before that I was probably a B player in the military. Back when I was playing there really wasn't a lot of information to be had like, youtube, forums, books, videos, etc.

For the last few weeks I have been trying to knock the rust off and reading / analyzing my fundamentals as much as I can. My shooting has been inconsistent at best.

Yesterday while practicing I got frustrated and just told myself that I used to know how to make a ball before i knew what CTE, ghost ball, diamond systems, rear english, which ball to look at last etc. etc, so I threw some balls out on the table and just let my mind go and shot in a bit of a 'hurry' on each shot.

I couldn't miss. I was making long shots, tight cuts, banks, and just about everything I pointed my cue at.

I keep reading when it comes to fundamentals sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards and I really want to get back into playing shape.

So my question, or an item for discussion is how do you manage being hyper self aware and analyzing everything vs. just letting it fly?

Is the information overload too much, am I giving myself too many things to be aware of when shooting?

Perhaps this is why instructors still can make a living - sorting through all of the information overload?

 

[336Robin]

Exactly

I haven't played pool really at all for the last 16 years or so, before that I was probably a B player in the military. Back when I was playing there really wasn't a lot of information to be had like, youtube, forums, books, videos, etc.

For the last few weeks I have been trying to knock the rust off and reading / analyzing my fundamentals as much as I can. My shooting has been inconsistent at best.

Yesterday while practicing I got frustrated and just told myself that I used to know how to make a ball before i knew what CTE, ghost ball, diamond systems, rear english, which ball to look at last etc. etc, so I threw some balls out on the table and just let my mind go and shot in a bit of a 'hurry' on each shot.

I couldn't miss. I was making long shots, tight cuts, banks, and just about everything I pointed my cue at.

I keep reading when it comes to fundamentals sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards and I really want to get back into playing shape.

So my question, or an item for discussion is how do you manage being hyper self aware and analyzing everything vs. just letting it fly?

Is the information overload too much, am I giving myself too many things to be aware of when shooting?

Perhaps this is why instructors still can make a living - sorting through all of the information overload?

I recently taught a total feel player and it taught me some lessons.

What I learned is that the fundamentals of stance and stroke were important to him also it was important to not complicate things.

For someone like you who is new I would tell you just a few things and then stand back and let you go.

The things I would stress are fundamental things to change for a few weeks then I would give you an idea that would help your aiming.

 

[ktrepal85]

I have this problem as well. And generally my game teeters back and forth between the two. If during the current week I'm shooting fast and loose and it's working I'll stick with it. If I start missing balls or making stupid mistakes I'll take a step back, slow down, and focus on all the fundamentals. The next week I'll be playing much slower and it will usually work for a while and then I'll start overthinking everything and playing pretty bad. So then I'll start drinking beers, playing fast, and swinging at everything without thinking much.. This usually puts me right in stroke and I can't miss. All of the fundamentals become muscle memory and I don't need to focus on them anymore and I just keep playing fast and loose. Then of course, at some point I'll start getting too sloppy and I'll need to restart the cycle and slow things down. Generally I prefer to play fast and loose but I need to slow down every once in a while to maintain composure.

 

[philly]

I like the fast and loose approach, sort of. I am a feel player and feel players tend to play fast, sometimes too fast. Even though I play somewhat fast I consciously try to slow it down. Like most feel players lessons don't work for me as they tend to muddle my feeble brain. I play fast enough that my toughest opponents are the slow players but that is whole other thread.

 

[WillyCornbread]

So in general do players fall into 'feel' and 'thinking' players, or do most people do their thinking in specific practice drills + sessions and let muscle memory / feel take over in games?

I'm really struggling to know whether I should fight the feel I play with in an effort to improve my fundamental and prevent a plateau - or just go with it and stop thinking so much about everything...

Thanks for the discussion

 

[ktrepal85]

So in general do players fall into 'feel' and 'thinking' players, or do most people do their thinking in specific practice drills + sessions and let muscle memory / feel take over in games?

I'm really struggling to know whether I should fight the feel I play with in an effort to improve my fundamental and prevent a plateau - or just go with it and stop thinking so much about everything...

Thanks for the discussion

It depends. Earlier you mentioned you were thinking about "CTE, ghost ball, diamond systems, rear english, which ball to look at last etc. etc," and those aren't fundamentals. Those are just stupid things that help with aiming mostly. Forget all that shit and go off feel when it comes to aiming. However, if your stance or stroke(fundamentals) are all screwed up then you should really slow down and focus on those things.

 

[WillyCornbread]

ktrepal85 - you are correct, but that was miscommunication on my part. I find myself thinking more about my stance, is my stroke straight, what ball am I looking at last, is my elbow at 90 degrees, stay down on your shot, loose rear grip, parallel cue, pause in backstroke...

The other stuff I mentioned is more distracting pre-shot and has me second-guessing what I 'feel' the right line is.

I guess how do I know if my stroke and fundamentals are 'screwed up' and I'm just compensating for it mentally somehow and can expect this to bite me in the ass as I try to improve - or if my stroke is my stroke... HAMB?

 

[ktrepal85]

ktrepal85 - you are correct, but that was miscommunication on my part. I find myself thinking more about my stance, is my stroke straight, what ball am I looking at last, is my elbow at 90 degrees, stay down on your shot, loose rear grip, parallel cue, pause in backstroke...

The other stuff I mentioned is more distracting pre-shot and has me second-guessing what I 'feel' the right line is.

I guess how do I know if my stroke and fundamentals are 'screwed up' and I'm just compensating for it mentally somehow and can expect this to bite me in the ass as I try to improve - or if my stroke is my stroke... HAMB?

The best way to know if your fundamentals are correct is to take a video of yourself shooting and analyze it. But honestly, I would think that if you used to play a lot and you just started back up you should naturally retain the fundamentals you once had. It will just take a while to get your playing ability back. If you don't want to record a video then my next suggestion would be to choose one fundamental to work on at a time. For the next few weeks only worry about keeping your head down for example and forget the rest. Then after that becomes a habit you can choose another fundamental to work on. Just take it one step at a time because as you said before, it's never good to have too much crap on your mind while you get down to shoot.

 

[Neil]

I haven't played pool really at all for the last 16 years or so, before that I was probably a B player in the military. Back when I was playing there really wasn't a lot of information to be had like, youtube, forums, books, videos, etc.

For the last few weeks I have been trying to knock the rust off and reading / analyzing my fundamentals as much as I can. My shooting has been inconsistent at best.

Yesterday while practicing I got frustrated and just told myself that I used to know how to make a ball before i knew what CTE, ghost ball, diamond systems, rear english, which ball to look at last etc. etc, so I threw some balls out on the table and just let my mind go and shot in a bit of a 'hurry' on each shot.

I couldn't miss. I was making long shots, tight cuts, banks, and just about everything I pointed my cue at.

I keep reading when it comes to fundamentals sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards and I really want to get back into playing shape.

So my question, or an item for discussion is how do you manage being hyper self aware and analyzing everything vs. just letting it fly?

Is the information overload too much, am I giving myself too many things to be aware of when shooting?

Perhaps this is why instructors still can make a living - sorting through all of the information overload?

I don't know why, but many seem to miss this part of instruction:

Thinking is for the practice table to teach your subconscious what to do. Game time is for letting your subconscious take over and do what you have trained it to do. You can't play well if you are consciously thinking about every step you have to go through.

 

[thintowin]

ktrepal85 -

I guess how do I know if my stroke and fundamentals are 'screwed up' and I'm just compensating for it mentally somehow and can expect this to bite me in the ass as I try to improve - or if my stroke is my stroke... HAMB?

... very wise, grasshopper ...

 

[Neil]

ktrepal85 - you are correct, but that was miscommunication on my part. I find myself thinking more about my stance, is my stroke straight, what ball am I looking at last, is my elbow at 90 degrees, stay down on your shot, loose rear grip, parallel cue, pause in backstroke...

The other stuff I mentioned is more distracting pre-shot and has me second-guessing what I 'feel' the right line is.

I guess how do I know if my stroke and fundamentals are 'screwed up' and I'm just compensating for it mentally somehow and can expect this to bite me in the ass as I try to improve - or if my stroke is my stroke... HAMB?

You learn that on the practice table, not the game table. That is one of the big purposes of drills- is what I am doing repeatable? Is it high percentage repeatable, or low percentage repeatable, or not at all and was just a fluke?

 

[Tramp Steamer]

If you're getting back into the swing of things, or stroke of things as the case may be, make sure you work to develop strong fundamentals. Your own personality will pretty much dictate how fast, or loose, you tend to play. Try to keep an even keel on your emotions, and don't berate yourself over and over if you struggle.
Getting good at pool takes years. Getting damned good at pool takes years, and years. Getting to pro level takes a lifetime.
By-the-way, learn One Pocket. All your cares will magically disappear.
You owe me a beer.

 

[tonythetiger583]

For myself, I'm an analytic type, but I find the problems come, when I overthink one aspect of a shot to much, and then I feel rushed, and shortcut the final steps (usually that means the shooting part).

At the same time, I think relying on feel is an easy way to have no control over how well you play on a given day.

I don't know if it can apply to anyone else, but I've just recently started to focus on allowing my personality to be who it wants to be at the pool table.

I actually have one major keyword, and 1-2 minor keywords (usually reflecting what I'm trying to make sure stays in check atm). But I find that keyword sums up everything I'm about, and if I focus on that word, everything seems to fall into place.

My keyword is to "Savor" it. I try to approach a table like that delicious something you've been craving on a sunny day. If it's your favourite burger, really taste it. Take your time with it, don't rush it. You've earned it and it may be the best burger you'll ever have again.

When I savor something, I take my time, I mind all the little details, I'm loose relaxed, happy, grateful.

But I think this only works because I take pleasure in the small details, so if I'm calm and relaxed, I'll happily double check all the little bits.

 

[tonythetiger583]

So in general do players fall into 'feel' and 'thinking' players, or do most people do their thinking in specific practice drills + sessions and let muscle memory / feel take over in games?

I'm really struggling to know whether I should fight the feel I play with in an effort to improve my fundamental and prevent a plateau - or just go with it and stop thinking so much about everything...

Thanks for the discussion

I think you should be deliberate about what you do in the beginning. If you just do it by feel, you could easily never get any better, cause you might not have any idea what's even going on in terms of body awareness. But the deliberate route means that you will constantly feel off your game, and not in your element. I only started playing a year and a half ago, but it was a weird year. Every week in league, I'd have a new stance, or a new stroke etc, and I always felt like I had no idea what my actual game looked like. It wasn't pleasant, and it was difficult. Constant tweaking, without ever having much time to get used to anything, before going back to the drawing board. I think I reinvented my play style on a daily basis. I could win games by playing smart, but I always felt like the underdog to people who just did what felt right.

But it's almost going on two years, and I can run-out minimum twice a night, and I finally feel like I'm juuuuuust got over a significant plateau that separates a run-out player from a banger.

I now feel comfortable to just let it all go, and play by feel, but a feel that had to be earned and supported by practice and knowledge.

 

[WillyCornbread]

Thanks for weighing in everyone. It seems like it's just a matter of time and practice and figuring out what parts of my feel are correct and what parts are a crutch.

I like the idea of focusing on one fundamental at a time - that may help me not get too analytical and stiff. I also really like the mantra of 'savor' it as a way to slow myself down.

Lastly, I suppose I ought to video my stroke when I get a home table and I might even consider a lesson or two to help identify where I should focus in order to truly improve and not just plateau.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

For myself, I'm an analytic type, but I find the problems come, when I overthink one aspect of a shot to much, and then I feel rushed, and shortcut the final steps (usually that means the shooting part).
At the same time, I think relying on feel is an easy way to have no control over how well you play on a given day.
I don't know if it can apply to anyone else, but I've just recently started to focus on allowing my personality to be who it wants to be at the pool table.
I actually have one major keyword, and 1-2 minor keywords (usually reflecting what I'm trying to make sure stays in check atm). But I find that keyword sums up everything I'm about, and if I focus on that word, everything seems to fall into place.
My keyword is to "Savor" it. I try to approach a table like that delicious something you've been craving on a sunny day. If it's your favourite burger, really taste it. Take your time with it, don't rush it. You've earned it and it may be the best burger you'll ever have again.
When I savor something, I take my time, I mind all the little details, I'm loose relaxed, happy, grateful.
But I think this only works because I take pleasure in the small details, so if I'm calm and relaxed, I'll happily double check all the little bits.

Being the analytical type, you can appreciate this.
What did the constipated mathematician do? He worked it out with a pencil. :smile:

 

[Colonel]

I don't know why, but many seem to miss this part of instruction:



Thinking is for the practice table to teach your subconscious what to do. Game time is for letting your subconscious take over and do what you have trained it to do. You can't play well if you are consciously thinking about every step you have to go through.

Pretty much this^^^^^^^^^^^^.
I've always believed that your conscious mind has a very, very small place in playing this game.

I can't speak to beginners because it's different for them in that they haven't put in the table time yet to have programmed their subconscious so not being an instructor I don't know what to say to help them.

For advanced players that can't break through a plateau I offer this. For me it's about a routine, a PSR. Standing at the table I allow my conscious mind in to evaluate the table & make a conscious decision on the path I'll take through the rack which really doesn't take very long at this point in my journey. Once that is done so is the conscious mind and for me there is no more thinking.

At this point I pick up a chalk & as I chalk my cue I "picture" the ball traveling to & being pocketed & the cue balls resulting path to correct position on the right side of the next ball. It's very important to "see" that picture or video if you will, in your minds "eye" as I believe our subconscious performs what you "show it" via these pictures, NOT on verbal commands from that voice in your head.

Once I have "seen" that picture clearly I set the chalk down & drop on the ball and let it fly. For me there is no aiming, no conscious thought of where that point of aim is or speed of stroke or where my cue tip is on the cueball or type of English used, I don't think about that stuff, I don't think at all.

I guess the best way to describe it is that once I've "seen" that picture & drop, I am allowing my subconscious to take care of all of those incidentals, to pull up from the data base what it needs to make that picture I just envisioned before dropping on the ball come to life.

Again I can't recommend this to the beginning or intermediate player as I don't know if they have enough shots or shapes "programmed" in yet. But if you're an advanced player that has put in the time I recommend this & your game will jump a ball or better.

 

[WillyCornbread]

For me there is no aiming, no conscious thought of where that point of aim is or speed of stroke or where my cue tip is on the cueball or type of English used, I don't think about that stuff, I don't think at all.

I think I do really well in the aiming and stroke department without thinking. Much better than when I try to adjust and be aware of every little detail.

My shot speed and shape at this point are absolutely terrible however, so the uncertainty in this area is probably contributing to my inconsistency because I'm thinking / doubting everything...

It seems that practice is the only answer - I was hoping there was a new DVD I could buy or something that would fix all my issues :wink:

 

[Colonel]

I think I do really well in the aiming and stroke department without thinking. Much better than when I try to adjust and be aware of every little detail.



My shot speed and shape at this point are absolutely terrible however, so the uncertainty in this area is probably contributing to my inconsistency because I'm thinking / doubting everything...



It seems that practice is the only answer - I was hoping there was a new DVD I could buy or something that would fix all my issues :wink:

There really are no quick fixes. Shape is understanding where you want to go & what you should put on the ball to get there. I suggest using English as little as possible & encourage using natural lines & simple off the rail paths to navigate the table, keep it simple as possible. This requires table time and practice.

Speed control is nothing but time on the table & understanding conditions that will affect it, cloth, temperature, humidity, speed of rails on the table you're playing on at any given time & how those varying conditions will affect speed & adjustments to make. All in all its putting in the work until it is second nature to you. I will offer this, speed of stroke required is much less than you would think it is. Good luck.