Pads between ferrule and tip...when to install vs not install

K

KUKABUKA

Active member
Hi all,

As a friendly repair guy in training I've got no idea when to install or not install a pad between the ferrule and tip. Are there any rules of thumb for this? Any minimum requisites such as certain types of ferrule or tips or anything else to be aware of?

edit: for what its worth, I have a lathe and am practicing mostly on the generic brunswick cues that come with one of their furniture tables.

Thanks for any input

KUKABUKA
 
Last edited:
KUKABUKA said:
Hi all,

As a friendly repair guy in training I've got no idea when to install or not install a pad between the ferrule and tip. Are there any rules of thumb for this? Any minimum requisites such as certain types of ferrule or tips or anything else to be aware of?

edit: for what its worth, I have a lathe and am practicing mostly on the generic brunswick cues that come with one of their furniture tables.

Thanks for any input

KUKABUKA
Click to expand...
I keep some clear acrylic pads for those who want their tip to look like a Kamui clear. I know there are many reasons to install a pad under the tip, but I leave that up to the customer.
 
Tom1234 said:
I keep some clear acrylic pads for those who want their tip to look like a Kamui clear. I know there are many reasons to install a pad under the tip, but I leave that up to the customer.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input. Would you ever put down an acrylic pad and then a fibre pad on top? I have both and don't know what's good practice here. What would some of these reasons to install a pad under the tip be?
 
KUKABUKA said:
Thanks for your input. Would you ever put down an acrylic pad and then a fibre pad on top? I have both and don't know what's good practice here. What would some of these reasons to install a pad under the tip be?
Click to expand...
On ivory it prevents cracking. On other stuff it can make the next tip install easier... maybe. It's also a looks thing. That's about it.
 
I recommend them for ferrules that are not capped, especially if they are thinner walled. Think about your tip mushrooming, it might be putting lateral force on the ferrule. If they let the tip get very low, they can damage the ferrule pretty easily. My main reason for them is that a pad eliminates the possibility of any lateral movement. Layered tips may alleviate this a little, but it's still leather and malleable.
 
My thoughts on Pads.....
First, if it's an uncapped ferrule, what stops a pad from coming off compared to a tip? Absolutely nothing, IMO, as an unstable base(tenon thru a ferrule) will still move under impact and break the bond whether it be a tip or a pad, basically no matter the glue used. Secondly, By adding a pad, you now may have doubled the chance of a failure, and for what reason? A fancy looking clear pad, or a red/black whatever? The only reason pads were used originally was to protect an ivory ferrule, well guess what? 99.99999999999% of ferrules are no longer ivory, hence no need for a pad in my opinion on a normal cue. There are some places it is VERY important though, like a predator 314-3, BK breakers, and some others that the CARBON fiber pad is a must to prevent damage to the ferrule, but it's part of the design, not a fancy add-on thing. BTW, has anyone else noticed a lot of failures of the BK Rush CF shafts having the silencer pad break loose from the vault plate? Have had 3-4 this past month alone and predator isn't taking them for warrentee work?
 
Dave38 said:
My thoughts on Pads.....
First, if it's an uncapped ferrule, what stops a pad from coming off compared to a tip? Absolutely nothing, IMO, as an unstable base(tenon thru a ferrule) will still move under impact and break the bond whether it be a tip or a pad, basically no matter the glue used. Secondly, By adding a pad, you now may have doubled the chance of a failure, and for what reason? A fancy looking clear pad, or a red/black whatever? The only reason pads were used originally was to protect an ivory ferrule, well guess what? 99.99999999999% of ferrules are no longer ivory, hence no need for a pad in my opinion on a normal cue. There are some places it is VERY important though, like a predator 314-3, BK breakers, and some others that the CARBON fiber pad is a must to prevent damage to the ferrule, but it's part of the design, not a fancy add-on thing. BTW, has anyone else noticed a lot of failures of the BK Rush CF shafts having the silencer pad break loose from the vault plate? Have had 3-4 this past month alone and predator isn't taking them for warrentee work?
Click to expand...

Seems you misunderstand the point of fiber pads/pads in general. A leather tip has the chance to expand when hit(mushrooming) and it’s only the glue bond that prevents that bottom of the tip from expanding. Single layer tips have a chance to expand more than a layered tip. So when that expansion is paired with a natural material, or a weaker synthetic material it has a chance to break/crack the ferrule. That is why a pad is used. The clear pads from Kamui were meant to ‘solve’ a problem of glue wicking. Not a problem when thicker gel glued are used.

So unlike you claim, pads are still used to prevent ferrules from cracking. And it seems quite a lot of people including yourself have forgotten the proper use of fiber pads.
 
Last edited:
Hits 'em Hard said:
Seems you misunderstand the point of fiber pads/pads in general. A leather tip has the chance to expand when hit(mushrooming) and it’s only the glue bond that prevents that bottom of the tip from expanding. Single layer tips have a chance to expand more than a layered tip. So when that expansion is paired with a natural material, or a weaker synthetic material it has a chance to break/crack the ferrule. That is why a pad is used. The clear pads from Kamui were meant to ‘solve’ a problem of glue wicking. Not a problem when thicker gel glued are used.

So unlike you claim, pads are still used to prevent ferrules from cracking. And it seems quite a lot of people including yourself have forgotten the proper use of fiber pads.
Click to expand...
Not sure you read Dave38's post very good
 
Dave38 said:
My thoughts on Pads.....
First, if it's an uncapped ferrule, what stops a pad from coming off compared to a tip? Absolutely nothing, IMO, as an unstable base(tenon thru a ferrule) will still move under impact and break the bond whether it be a tip or a pad, basically no matter the glue used. Secondly, By adding a pad, you now may have doubled the chance of a failure, and for what reason? A fancy looking clear pad, or a red/black whatever? The only reason pads were used originally was to protect an ivory ferrule, well guess what? 99.99999999999% of ferrules are no longer ivory, hence no need for a pad in my opinion on a normal cue. There are some places it is VERY important though, like a predator 314-3, BK breakers, and some others that the CARBON fiber pad is a must to prevent damage to the ferrule, but it's part of the design, not a fancy add-on thing. BTW, has anyone else noticed a lot of failures of the BK Rush CF shafts having the silencer pad break loose from the vault plate? Have had 3-4 this past month alone and predator isn't taking them for warrentee work?
Click to expand...
Flat surface sticks to flat surface better . The bond between the pad and ferrule is greater than the bond between the tip and the pad .
I only use cf or paper phenolic pad , not compressed paper .
 
Buddy said:
Not sure you read Dave38's post very good
Click to expand...
Read it quite clear. He thinks that just because we don’t use ivory ferrules anymore that fiber pads are not needed anymore. That’s not true in the slightest. And hopefully I clarified that the clear style pad Kamui introduced isn’t the same style of pad that the fiber pads are. So if Dave is stating that fiber pads are 100% not needed, then his justifications provided must back up that claim. And they don’t.
 
I put a pad on 99% of all the shafts I build. My ferrules are thru design. I've used both fiber and phenolic pads on these shafts with yet a one to come off during play (that I know or heard of) in 20 plus yrs.
Glue type used and prep are mandatory for the longevity effect.
My player has the same pad/tip and ferrule design since 2004.
I break with the same cue I play with.
I don't play as much as I used to but still take it out for an occasional run around the green with zero tip problems.
Maybe I'm just lucky! 🤠
 
Wow this is great, thanks everyone for sharing their experiences, it's interesting to see so many different perspectives on such a small disc
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
Seems you misunderstand the point of fiber pads/pads in general. A leather tip has the chance to expand when hit(mushrooming) and it’s only the glue bond that prevents that bottom of the tip from expanding. Single layer tips have a chance to expand more than a layered tip. So when that expansion is paired with a natural material, or a weaker synthetic material it has a chance to break/crack the ferrule. That is why a pad is used. The clear pads from Kamui were meant to ‘solve’ a problem of glue wicking. Not a problem when thicker gel glued are used.

So unlike you claim, pads are still used to prevent ferrules from cracking. And it seems quite a lot of people including yourself have forgotten the proper use of fiber pads.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying in the highlighted quote is the tip mushrooming(expansion) causes ferrules to crack if you don't use a fiber pad, am I understanding that correctly? That is probably the most Interesting thing I have ever heard.....got some kinda history/evidence to back that statement? I have never heard that before I just read it here.
With all the synthetic materials out there, a regular ferrule shouldn't crack easily, usually it's due to the owner going too long before changing the tip out usually on an older cue with a more brittle type of material, or using a cue to break with that the ferrule was not designed for and cannot handle it. In the case of the predator ones.....we all know why they crack and it has NOTHING to do with mushrooming and no fiber pad will stop it.
Why is it, Hit's em Hard, you always come off with a know-it-all, condescending attitude simply because someone has a different opinion than you?
 
I put a pad on all Ivory ferrules and on most ferrules with the through hole going all the way through.
 
Dave38 said:
So what you're saying in the highlighted quote is the tip mushrooming(expansion) causes ferrules to crack if you don't use a fiber pad, am I understanding that correctly? That is probably the most Interesting thing I have ever heard.....got some kinda history/evidence to back that statement? I have never heard that before I just read it here.
With all the synthetic materials out there, a regular ferrule shouldn't crack easily, usually it's due to the owner going too long before changing the tip out usually on an older cue with a more brittle type of material, or using a cue to break with that the ferrule was not designed for and cannot handle it. In the case of the predator ones.....we all know why they crack and it has NOTHING to do with mushrooming and no fiber pad will stop it.
Why is it, Hit's em Hard, you always come off with a know-it-all, condescending attitude simply because someone has a different opinion than you?
Click to expand...
That’s the problem, you think I’m exposing my opinion. I’m not. It’s not my opinion that leather tip expansion would cause the grain of the ivory ferrule to fail and split. That’s a fact I’m repeating. Any ferrule installed wrong has a chance to crack when hit. Any uncapped ferrule has a chance to crack. Again, not my opinion here, just plain facts. The chance to fail has many factors to consider. And you’ve seemingly considered none. It’s not my opinion that ivory ferrules crack at a rate much higher than anything else. It’s fact based on the other people reporting the failures of ivory and the lack of reports for failures of other materials. MCDermott quit using their fiber based ferrules not due to failure of the material, but due to the potential of shrinking. Predator quit using their gen1 ferrule material because it wasn’t strong enough for the application.

Now, how can it be that ivory ferrules were used for years before fiber pads were used. Yet there was still this need to start putting fiber pads on ivory ferrules? You want to sidetrack the point of topic, that’s fine. But no matter the material used, misusing the material to make a ferrule sidewall thinner or too short of a ferrule will always cause problems. That’s not up for discussion. What’s the problem though is how you can seemingly make up theories for why a ferrule cracked without a pad, but won’t crack with a pad on it. Even a fiber pad with an overused tip needing replacement doesn’t crack the ferrule. So how can we go about this to fix your misinformation of the proper usage of fiber pads?

Because as I see it, you’re about to join three other ‘cue makers’ on my list of people who don’t understand what they’re typing. And you should know who these three other people are. Because they cannot make a ‘helpful’ post without being dragged through the mud because of their lack of comprehension. Please don’t join them just because your opinion differs from the facts at hand.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
That’s the problem, you think I’m exposing my opinion. I’m not. It’s not my opinion that leather tip expansion would cause the grain of the ivory ferrule to fail and split. That’s a fact I’m repeating. Any ferrule installed wrong has a chance to crack when hit. Any uncapped ferrule has a chance to crack. Again, not my opinion here, just plain facts. The chance to fail has many factors to consider. And you’ve seemingly considered none. It’s not my opinion that ivory ferrules crack at a rate much higher than anything else. It’s fact based on the other people reporting the failures of ivory and the lack of reports for failures of other materials. MCDermott quit using their fiber based ferrules not due to failure of the material, but due to the potential of shrinking. Predator quit using their gen1 ferrule material because it wasn’t strong enough for the application.

Now, how can it be that ivory ferrules were used for years before fiber pads were used. Yet there was still this need to start putting fiber pads on ivory ferrules? You want to sidetrack the point of topic, that’s fine. But no matter the material used, misusing the material to make a ferrule sidewall thinner or too short of a ferrule will always cause problems. That’s not up for discussion. What’s the problem though is how you can seemingly make up theories for why a ferrule cracked without a pad, but won’t crack with a pad on it. Even a fiber pad with an overused tip needing replacement doesn’t crack the ferrule. So how can we go about this to fix your misinformation of the proper usage of fiber pads?

Because as I see it, you’re about to join three other ‘cue makers’ on my list of people who don’t understand what they’re typing. And you should know who these three other people are. Because they cannot make a ‘helpful’ post without being dragged through the mud because of their lack of comprehension. Please don’t join them just because your opinion differs from the facts at hand.
Click to expand...
Where are your 'FACTS'? you spit out your claims with NO BACKUP! Show us printed proof that a tip mushrooming is the cause of cracked ferrules! Have another person back it up atleast, but I noticed that NO ONE did so far.... You claimed it, now prove it or just stfu! Your statement I highlighted above was the most absurd statement I have heard since Ricky claimed that 3600 PSI epoxy caused ferrules to explode in airline travel. I only stated my opinion, and I don't give a rats ass which group you put me in, as I really don't care what you think about me. Basically you don't fully read what people write, and you certainly don't even seem to proof read what you write, you just spew self serving crap. Done with members like yourself that are self-proclaimed experts but never have any credentials to show......nor any work you have done....nor any respect for an opposing OPINION.

Dave
 
Dave38 said:
Where are your 'FACTS'? you spit out your claims with NO BACKUP! Show us printed proof that a tip mushrooming is the cause of cracked ferrules! Have another person back it up atleast, but I noticed that NO ONE did so far.... You claimed it, now prove it or just stfu! Your statement I highlighted above was the most absurd statement I have heard since Ricky claimed that 3600 PSI epoxy caused ferrules to explode in airline travel. I only stated my opinion, and I don't give a rats ass which group you put me in, as I really don't care what you think about me. Basically you don't fully read what people write, and you certainly don't even seem to proof read what you write, you just spew self serving crap. Done with members like yourself that are self-proclaimed experts but never have any credentials to show......nor any work you have done....nor any respect for an opposing OPINION.

Dave
Click to expand...
Reverse what my point would be saying. That’s how you sound when you started claiming fiber pads aren’t needed without any evidence. You’re easily triggered by an opposing view that you don’t want to believe is true. Here’s the kicker there is no printed proof to support your claim as their is no printed proof to mine either. Here’s some food for thought, why is a tip that’s not installed that has been flattened referred to as ‘pancaked’ vs an installed tip referred to as ‘mushroomed’?
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
Here’s some food for thought, why is a tip that’s not installed that has been flattened referred to as ‘pancaked’ vs an installed tip referred to as ‘mushroomed’?
Click to expand...
Not him, but the base of an installed tip is glued to the ferrule. The glued part cannot expand horizontally because of the bond, so only the upper portion expands. An uninstalled tip is said to pancake as the entire tip can expand horizontally. The leather fibers basically separate and slide out of place, where the glued area cannot.

I honestly have no idea what this has to do in any way with a ferrule cracking, do you care to explain your reasoning? I'm curious.

The easiest way to avoid mushrooming on single layer is to use a pressed tip, or a tip such as a milk dud that helps bond the leather fibers within the tip. A good burnish will also case harden the leather and prevent it from expanding outward/mushrooming.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top