Palmer Values, 1st through 3rd catalog

[TATE]

This is a preview to a section of the web site where I will be listing values:

http://www.palmercollector.com/Values.html

I've tried to list my perception of values based on past transactions, dealers listings, auctions, etc.

Before I integrate it into the site, I would like to get your opionions on the format and information I've presented.

Thanks!

Chris

 

[TATE]

To: I_maycott

FYI I tried to reply to your private message but the mail system said you chose not to receive private messages.

Chris

 

[pawnmon]

Chris,

As an appraiser I appreciate the amount of work it took to put this information together and display it on your website. I also like your market approach to value, which is missing on many value lists out there. Lastly your explanation of conditions is realistic. I agree that simply refinishing a cue (that isn't historically significant) should ultimately add to it's value as long as it's true to the original colors and design.

Thanks for all your hard and thoughtful work and your help with the always difficult pricing issue.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Chris -

My opinion is the prices are a tad high but pretty close.

One recommendation is to show the original price.

Otherwise looks pretty good,

Ken

 

[cueaddicts]

Chris,

I think that for the most part the values are on/around the mark. One thing, dealer list price might not always equate to a sale price, so basing them on a few known transactions should even the values out (I think you've done that most places).

Also, there are some of the cues that seem more tough to find than others, especially in that 3rd catalog. The ones I'm thinking about the model #10, #12, #13, #15, and #19. I would think it's tough to value these cues. You may be a shade low on 13, 15, and 19.

For a true one-of-a-kind, it may realize a value of $500 or so more compared to it's most comparable "line cue", condition adjusted, of course.

All in all, these values seem to be a pretty accurate reflection of the market from what I've seen. Nice work !!

Sean

 

[JimBo]

As aways nice job, what you forgot to do was to jack up the prices on the cues you want to dump in the near future, tht seems to be comon practice for some dealers who helped with BB priceing. You always seem to miss the boat when it comes to shady cuebiz ethics.

Jim

 

[TATE]

As aways nice job, what you forgot to do was to jack up the prices on the cues you want to dump in the near future, tht seems to be comon practice for some dealers who helped with BB priceing. You always seem to miss the boat when it comes to shady cuebiz ethics.

Jim

As always, Jimbo, I got a huge laugh out of your post! Thanks.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Chris,

Also, there are some of the cues that seem more tough to find than others, especially in that 3rd catalog. The ones I'm thinking about the model #10, #12, #13, #15, and #19. I would think it's tough to value these cues. You may be a shade low on 13, 15, and 19.

For a true one-of-a-kind, it may realize a value of $500 or so more compared to it's most comparable "line cue", condition adjusted, of course.

Sean

Thanks - I'll review the prices and adjust if necessary.

I finally picked up a 13, I have not seen a 12 or a 15 (ever), and I've unsuccessfully tried to purchase the two Model 19's I've seen. Some day I will probably get one of them.

Chris

 

[TATE]

My opinion is the prices are a tad high but pretty close.

One recommendation is to show the original price.

Otherwise looks pretty good,

Ken

Thanks, Ken. I will be adjusting the values continuously based on transactions that occur and documenting them. In many cases, I communicate 'behind the scenes' with buyers and sellers in an effort to track values.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Chris,

As an appraiser I appreciate the amount of work it took to put this information together and display it on your website. I also like your market approach to value, which is missing on many value lists out there. Lastly your explanation of conditions is realistic. I agree that simply refinishing a cue (that isn't historically significant) should ultimately add to it's value as long as it's true to the original colors and design.

Thanks for all your hard and thoughtful work and your help with the always difficult pricing issue.

Thanks Pawnmom. The refinished/restored issue is sometimes a difficult one. While I figure a restored cue is worth more than a cue that needs the work, it is not worth as much as a pristine original cue. Pristine original cues are rare, so it's hard to establish a real market value for them. In some cases, the sky is the limit.

Chris

 

[skins]

Chris,

I think that for the most part the values are on/around the mark. One thing, dealer list price might not always equate to a sale price, so basing them on a few known transactions should even the values out (I think you've done that most places).

Also, there are some of the cues that seem more tough to find than others, especially in that 3rd catalog. The ones I'm thinking about the model #10, #12, #13, #15, and #19. I would think it's tough to value these cues. You may be a shade low on 13, 15, and 19.


Sean

i agree in a sense. even though tate is this sites "master palmer guru" i think that the values need to be further researched to find how many examples exist of each design. that would determine the final "order" in which the cues are valued. the cues that could be worth more are the ones that were the fewest produced or had the fewest known existing examples not necessarily the fanciest. one of my brothers. kevin, is one of the most knowledgeable collectors of flat top beer cans with opening instructions in the world. ya' know the ones with the can opener on the side of the can (if your old enough to remember such things). he has written the "bible" for these called "United States Beer Cans with Opening Instructions" and he traveled the globe, met with most top collectors and further researched them for over 30 years. he found, after his discussions with top collectors along with his own knowledge, the determination of the values would be based mostly on rarity, existing or produced, though condition also played a role. simply the most valuable were the rarest. this does play a role in cues also but what size role, imo, would depend on the maker.

 

[thediamond]

Chris

That is awesome mate, very useful.

Not that I want bring up the whole Blue Book thing again but if Brad had more time, I can think of 30 people on this site that could bring a balanced, HONEST opinion on market values for cues....based on what we know to be true through our own dealings.

Again, Chris.....well done.

Si

 

[TATE]

i think that the values need to be further researched to find how many examples exist of each design. that would determine the final "order" in which the cues are valued. the cues that could be worth more are the ones that were the fewest produced or had the fewest known existing examples not necessarily the fanciest.

I do have production numbers, or a reasonable estimate of them by Peter Balner for all models from all 3 catalogs. I don't plan on publishing these numbers, because the survivor rate is the uncertainty. I believe it's possible that fewer than 10% of the first catalog cues survived. This may seem unreasonable, but remember, these cues were relatively inexpensive and were sold well before the collecting craze had really started. On the entry level models, if a shaft warped or the wrap unwound, rather than hassle with the repairs, a player might just toss the cue and fork over $25 for a new one. Add in cracked windows, broken buttcaps, and deteriorating finishes. A lot of cues were just thrown away...

I will say that in each catalog, the fancier and more expensive the cue, the lower the production number and I also believe the greater the survival percentage. However, I doubt if more than 30% of any single model in the 1st catalog survived. These are wild estimates - there is no way of knowing for sure. I am hoping my web site will uncover more Palmer cues owners.

The values actually only reflect cash transactions I've experienced or have witnessed take place over the last several years. I am not trying to influence or establish the prices, just to establish guidelines by documenting transactions that have taken place which I consider fairly reflect the values of each example regardless of production numbers.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Chris

That is awesome mate, very useful.

Not that I want bring up the whole Blue Book thing again but if Brad had more time, I can think of 30 people on this site that could bring a balanced, HONEST opinion on market values for cues....based on what we know to be true through our own dealings.

Again, Chris.....well done.

Si

Thanks Si, I appreciate it.

I have also offered to help Brad Simpson with the Blue Book. I am pretty confident that, when the time comes (in a few years), there is a pretty knowledgeable team right here and maybe we can all help with the pricing and the examples.

Chris

 

[skins]

I doubt if more than 30% of any single model in the 1st catalog survived. These are wild estimates - there is no way of knowing for sure. I am hoping my web site will uncover more Palmer cues owners.

Chris

this is the same thing my brother thought when he was just a "collector" of flat top beer cans. when he went on his quest to write the definitive book on them he was very surprised how many other examples there were that had never been publicly exposed, in recent time anyway. i think your correct in you determination and i understand that there were far fewer palmer cues made that flat top beer cans and this imo would be the cross you'ld have to bare in searching for other examples. if anyone has a good start you are him. good luck.

 

[Barbara]

Hey Chris!

Great info, thanks!!

What about the PB cue line? I have a PB-3 and a PB-11

Barbara

 

[TATE]

Hey Chris!

Great info, thanks!!

What about the PB cue line? I have a PB-3 and a PB-11

Barbara

Hi Barbara,

I haven't made it to the PB, PM, or Pete Margo Bullet cues, since the focus of my collecting is pre 1980. I do like these cues, and will track values internally to see where it leads.

Chris