Roy Steffensen said:
What's 3000 pesos in American money?
Phillipino dominance?
- Thread starter Fleece3
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What's 3000 pesos in American money?
The referee in the match against Efren wanted to play me in one-pocket, and wanted to give me handicap. But after the match against Efren he doesn't want to play me in one-pocket at all... haha... That's cool for a beginner of the game!
But they all want to play me in 9-ball though...
Am at One Side poolhall now, nice place, but all the money matches are at Side Pocket. That's a place all pool players should visit during their life, and I am def back tomorrow...
But they all want to play me in 9-ball though...
Am at One Side poolhall now, nice place, but all the money matches are at Side Pocket. That's a place all pool players should visit during their life, and I am def back tomorrow...
cuetechasaurus said:
Like 50 $ I guess...
It was easy to get a match against Efren that cheap, because no Filipinos wants to play him
But all wanted to watch him play, haha... I have also seen Dennis Orcullo lose 2 days in a row in money games against Lee Van Corteza, first day 23 - 19, day after 23 - 20. No handicap, and at a really tough table. Tighter than everything I have seen before, and really slow cloth. Van Corteza was down 18 - 11 the first day, and then made 10 Break & Runs the last 13 games...
I also saw Dennis lose 10 - 4 to Jeff De Luna the first day I was here, then I was Jeff's backer because no one wanted to bet against Dennis
However, I have had sidebets on the two matches against Lee, which he also lost...
I am so jealous Roy. I will be in the Phillipines next month and HAPPY to follow in your footsteps and experience the action.
I suppose this thread appears to be Roadie against the Phillipines/Taiwan. I know that you understand me that despite the wealth of talent in the Phillipines and Taiwan, they are not going to run over the best Germans.
I have to say this though: Between yours and Jay Helfert's first hand accounts the Phillipines is the dominant country when it comes to heart. Perhaps Taiwan as well but I don't think so.
There aren't many, correction, there aren't any places on Earth that I have been to where everyone in the place wants to match up with any stranger who walks in the door. That's another part of the Filipino dominance I spoke of, it's not the record or lack thereof, it's that in order to beat a Filipino player you have to simply outplay them because they are all business bringing their A game all the time. It is not that the Filipinos are dominating all the tournaments and walking away with most of the trophies, it's that they are always there, always pressing, always in the top finishers and snapping off their share.
Well, I hope this thread has played out. At least it didn't quite devolve to name calling which might be a first for AZ for such a polarizing topic.
For Crosseyed: I know it's a team thing. And right now, for the entire run of the World Championships, Team America is leading. Followed by Team Germany, tied with Team Taiwan.
And no, Busta is not German despite the time he spends in Germany. Alex however, grew up in Canada, learned the game there, and holds Canadian citizenship. He is listed as Canadian on the WPA's website under Champions. Perhaps you should lobby the WPA to change the listing if you want to claim his victory for the Phillipines. Alex is Filipino by birth and definitely 200% Filipino in the heart department. He might have MORE heart than most Filipino players for that matter. I have seen him ship it all in on HIS OWN MONEY against TOUGH odds.
The whole point Joe is that you can select any set of data you want to in order to get your results the way you want them. If you say well the Filipino performance over these tournaments was this and the Americans was this so this proves Filipino dominance then I can always answer with another set of tournments over another time period that shows another result. And it can go around and around and around.
I suppose this thread appears to be Roadie against the Phillipines/Taiwan. I know that you understand me that despite the wealth of talent in the Phillipines and Taiwan, they are not going to run over the best Germans.
I have to say this though: Between yours and Jay Helfert's first hand accounts the Phillipines is the dominant country when it comes to heart. Perhaps Taiwan as well but I don't think so.
There aren't many, correction, there aren't any places on Earth that I have been to where everyone in the place wants to match up with any stranger who walks in the door. That's another part of the Filipino dominance I spoke of, it's not the record or lack thereof, it's that in order to beat a Filipino player you have to simply outplay them because they are all business bringing their A game all the time. It is not that the Filipinos are dominating all the tournaments and walking away with most of the trophies, it's that they are always there, always pressing, always in the top finishers and snapping off their share.
Well, I hope this thread has played out. At least it didn't quite devolve to name calling which might be a first for AZ for such a polarizing topic.
For Crosseyed: I know it's a team thing. And right now, for the entire run of the World Championships, Team America is leading. Followed by Team Germany, tied with Team Taiwan.
And no, Busta is not German despite the time he spends in Germany. Alex however, grew up in Canada, learned the game there, and holds Canadian citizenship. He is listed as Canadian on the WPA's website under Champions. Perhaps you should lobby the WPA to change the listing if you want to claim his victory for the Phillipines. Alex is Filipino by birth and definitely 200% Filipino in the heart department. He might have MORE heart than most Filipino players for that matter. I have seen him ship it all in on HIS OWN MONEY against TOUGH odds.
The whole point Joe is that you can select any set of data you want to in order to get your results the way you want them. If you say well the Filipino performance over these tournaments was this and the Americans was this so this proves Filipino dominance then I can always answer with another set of tournments over another time period that shows another result. And it can go around and around and around.
The Money List: I suppose on some levels it's just all about who is making the most money. I suggest you look up Bobby Jones to find a story that illustrates that greatness is not about who is making the most money.
Having said that however, I find it fascinating that Efren Reyes tops the money lists in five of the last six years and was a close second behind Earl Strickland in 2000. And he leads already in 2007. Efren trancends the Phillipines into the upper echelon of players who stand out as truly dominant.
The money lists, without delving into whether or not they are an accurate reflection due to the variance in tournaments and payouts, are peppered with players from all nations and there isn't one nation that is particularly dominant over the last six years of record keeping. Sure you can point to 2006 and say the Filipinos took home most of the IPT money and so they have a higher sum than most of the other nations. But 2005/2006 was skewed heavily by the top heavy IPT events.
I will however concede that the Filipinos dominated the IPT in terms of how much they as a nation won. Germany dominated in regards to how much IPT money was actually put in the bank
Once again though I have to point out that most of that dominance is resting on Efren's shoulders. Winning 700,000+ of IPT Money by himself is what propeled the Filipinos beyond everyone else. Take him out and the field looks pretty level.
In diving, the highest and lowest scores are taken out in order to secure a fairer average. Take out the highest and lowest earners from each country and see how well the Filipines does against the rest of the world on the money lists. I have no idea how it would look but I guess it wouldn't be quite as "dominant" a showing as one might think from a country where ten year olds want to spot any white guy who walks in the door. Of course if I were ten and had some backers I'd spot anyone for $10 as well.
Having said that however, I find it fascinating that Efren Reyes tops the money lists in five of the last six years and was a close second behind Earl Strickland in 2000. And he leads already in 2007. Efren trancends the Phillipines into the upper echelon of players who stand out as truly dominant.
The money lists, without delving into whether or not they are an accurate reflection due to the variance in tournaments and payouts, are peppered with players from all nations and there isn't one nation that is particularly dominant over the last six years of record keeping. Sure you can point to 2006 and say the Filipinos took home most of the IPT money and so they have a higher sum than most of the other nations. But 2005/2006 was skewed heavily by the top heavy IPT events.
I will however concede that the Filipinos dominated the IPT in terms of how much they as a nation won. Germany dominated in regards to how much IPT money was actually put in the bank
Once again though I have to point out that most of that dominance is resting on Efren's shoulders. Winning 700,000+ of IPT Money by himself is what propeled the Filipinos beyond everyone else. Take him out and the field looks pretty level.
In diving, the highest and lowest scores are taken out in order to secure a fairer average. Take out the highest and lowest earners from each country and see how well the Filipines does against the rest of the world on the money lists. I have no idea how it would look but I guess it wouldn't be quite as "dominant" a showing as one might think from a country where ten year olds want to spot any white guy who walks in the door. Of course if I were ten and had some backers I'd spot anyone for $10 as well.
I am a Filipino Roadie but residing in the US but I didn't say the Filipinos are
dominant, but they are always prominent. Alex "Mau" Pagulayan grew up in
the Philippines till he moved to Canada when he was 12 years old. He also
got his Filipino citizenship back a year and a half ago.
3000 pesos is about $60 and a 10 dollar winning bet for a 10 year old will
secure his family a decent meal for the day. It might not mean much to you,
but to them, it will make a world of difference...
dominant, but they are always prominent. Alex "Mau" Pagulayan grew up in
the Philippines till he moved to Canada when he was 12 years old. He also
got his Filipino citizenship back a year and a half ago.
3000 pesos is about $60 and a 10 dollar winning bet for a 10 year old will
secure his family a decent meal for the day. It might not mean much to you,
but to them, it will make a world of difference...
Roadie said:
OK using your arguement, US is most dominant players ever.
LOL, get current.
People tell me I'm stuck in the eighties which I don't deny, but I least I know Hair Metal bands doesn't rule the airwave these days.
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Roadie said:
wow you sure can cheapen it. to them that $10 is worth as much as a months salary is to you. think about how good you need to be at 10 yrs old that you have a backer.. at 10 yrs old... in the Philippines. Do you realize how tough your life would be if you decided to make your living as a pool player in the Philippines?
Roadie said:
This also happens in the Olympics, specifically in Basketball, countries which did not win their respective regional championships(FIBA-Asia, FIBA-Europe, FIBA-Pacific, FIBA South Americas, etc.) may still win a slot in the Olypmics by joining and winning Pre-Olympic Tournament, i believe two slots are up for grabs in this tournament. I happen to know this because Philippines have it's own basketball controversy which would hopefully end today. Philippines is also bidding to host this Pre-Olympic Tournament.
gopi-1 said:
hi gopi, it's been a while since you're here kabayan! Sunrise is already closed since last year i think...
1. You don't have to lecture me on what people make, nor what poor is. I was playing pool for money when I was 12 as well and handing the winnings over to mom for groceries. And one day, mom gave me money for groceries and I went to the poolroom and lost it.
2. The real true facts are that most of these kids will stay broke in the Phillipines if they try to make pool their means of existence. In any poolroom economy be it in Manila or Miami the money just goes around and around. If I walk into a Manila poolroom and lose a couple hundred then a few people will have made a few extra dollars and there will be a little more money pumped into the poolroom economy. What happens to the rest of the people who didn't get a slice of that action? They stay broke.
It's bullshit to hold up a Dennis Orcullo or even Efren Reyes and say that emulating these two men is your ticket out of poverty.
That is pure crap. The fact of the matter is that very very few of the people playing seriously in the Phillipines will attain the level of Orcullo and Reyes to be able to go forth into the world and seemingly win at will. Those few will have financial success. The rest will languish in the poolroom economy and compete for victims or cannabalize each other.
One thing doesn't change thoughout the world. The majority of pool players stay broke because there aren't enough suckers to go around. The big action money backing players comes primarily from crime and the people doing the backing don't screw with $10 games.
I am going to have to borrow a page from Roger's book and make a a very assumptive statement, (see Roger, I am not immune). I don't need to ever set foot in the Phillipines to know that the majority of money players are broke and stay broke. A money player being the type of player who plays for money all the time. This has held true in every country I have ever been in. There are a few who manage to eke out a living, some who are notorious with the big action, and most whose fortunes come and go.
I love action. I love the romantic and spicy flavor of the pool player against the world, taking on all comers, beating tough odds, the gunslinger. I like to be in action. I like to sweat great players. I have spent a good deal of my life in action. But I don't fool myself into thinking that it's a worthwhile lifestyle or a lucrative one.
I have known a few players over the years that manage their money well and have indeed built a fair amount of financial security from gambling. A few who have built houses, made investments, put their children through school, and supported their families. These players are the exception. They stand in stark contrast to the thousands who scuffle and walk the earth with everything they own in their pockets. For some that image conveys the ultimate freedom and for others ultimate bondage.
You want the example of this? For a nation with so much heart, and full of so many world beaters, why did it take a foreigner to back Jeff DeLuna against Dennis Orcullo while Roy was visiting? Why wouldn't Jeff put himself in? Why wouldn't any Filipino backer do it? Because in the end, the Filipino pool room is no different than the American one, the German one, or the Taiwanese one. The cycle is the same even if the talent pool is deeper.
2. The real true facts are that most of these kids will stay broke in the Phillipines if they try to make pool their means of existence. In any poolroom economy be it in Manila or Miami the money just goes around and around. If I walk into a Manila poolroom and lose a couple hundred then a few people will have made a few extra dollars and there will be a little more money pumped into the poolroom economy. What happens to the rest of the people who didn't get a slice of that action? They stay broke.
It's bullshit to hold up a Dennis Orcullo or even Efren Reyes and say that emulating these two men is your ticket out of poverty.
That is pure crap. The fact of the matter is that very very few of the people playing seriously in the Phillipines will attain the level of Orcullo and Reyes to be able to go forth into the world and seemingly win at will. Those few will have financial success. The rest will languish in the poolroom economy and compete for victims or cannabalize each other.
One thing doesn't change thoughout the world. The majority of pool players stay broke because there aren't enough suckers to go around. The big action money backing players comes primarily from crime and the people doing the backing don't screw with $10 games.
I am going to have to borrow a page from Roger's book and make a a very assumptive statement, (see Roger, I am not immune). I don't need to ever set foot in the Phillipines to know that the majority of money players are broke and stay broke. A money player being the type of player who plays for money all the time. This has held true in every country I have ever been in. There are a few who manage to eke out a living, some who are notorious with the big action, and most whose fortunes come and go.
I love action. I love the romantic and spicy flavor of the pool player against the world, taking on all comers, beating tough odds, the gunslinger. I like to be in action. I like to sweat great players. I have spent a good deal of my life in action. But I don't fool myself into thinking that it's a worthwhile lifestyle or a lucrative one.
I have known a few players over the years that manage their money well and have indeed built a fair amount of financial security from gambling. A few who have built houses, made investments, put their children through school, and supported their families. These players are the exception. They stand in stark contrast to the thousands who scuffle and walk the earth with everything they own in their pockets. For some that image conveys the ultimate freedom and for others ultimate bondage.
You want the example of this? For a nation with so much heart, and full of so many world beaters, why did it take a foreigner to back Jeff DeLuna against Dennis Orcullo while Roy was visiting? Why wouldn't Jeff put himself in? Why wouldn't any Filipino backer do it? Because in the end, the Filipino pool room is no different than the American one, the German one, or the Taiwanese one. The cycle is the same even if the talent pool is deeper.
Roadie said:
Yes, you are right, that is bullshit.
Efren was interviewed once on national TV(i think that was back in 1999, after he won WC in Cardiff), he was asked on what he would say to all those young ones who adore and emulates him in playing pool. I was amazed by his answer, he said "stay in school and have a good education".
I think this is one of his motivation why he plays great pool, he wanted his children and grandchildren to go to school. And going to school needs a lot of money.
JohnPT said:
Read my other posts on this subject and you'll see I share your viewpoint.
As for what $10 is worth in the Phillipines I certainly understand that. The poolroom economy doesn't mirror the economy at large. People who gamble on pool aren't thinking of the prevailing wage.
I want to ask what happens if these kids lose? Say somebody with money is backing them and they lose? I am not going to go so far as to say that they get beat up for it. But I am going to guess that they don't get a lot of chances to keep playing on other people's money if they don't win. No victory, no payday, and no "job". And that's my point entirely.
Yeah, I can figure how tough it must be to try to earn a living as player in the Phillipines, especially when the GIs are gone and the odd white suckers are few and the champion caliber players many.
I am not losing to any ten year olds when I go to the Phillipines. You have to be at least 13 to play me.
When I go I am only going to play rotation anyway. We'll see how much of a spot they will give up in that game.
gopi-1 said:
I agree completely. Filipinos are definitely prominent on the pool scene. And by many measures they are dominant right now.
Alex
What a great combination of East and West he is. I think we can all be proud of Alex and his accomplishments. His understanding of the game can be credited to a lot of influence in North American and the Phillipines. It has always been a real treat to watch Alex in action.I understand the value of the bet to a poor person. The operative word is IF they win. I have been in pool a long time. Very few players make a living worth writing about much less supporting a family on, especially in the areas where the caliber of players are very high and many and the suckers very few.
We shouldn't turn this into a commercial for Starving Kids in Africa. We are talking about gambling on pool here. Win some lose some. One thing I know for sure. If, it's as Roy says where unknowns offer up huge spots to white foreigners then the Phillipines is a perfect place for some American pool hustlers to come and ply their trade. I wonder how quickly the spots would dry up once an American started winning some sets? I bet I could find some near world beater class Americans who could lemonade their way through winning some sets where they are getting spotted. $10 may not mean much to us but it goes a long way towards fun in the Phillipines and Free Fun is a lot funner than that you have to pay for.
Yeah, yeah, I know bring it on, we have all age groups here willing to take you on. The "hustle" goes both ways you know.
Roadie said:Read my other posts on this subject and you'll see I share your viewpoint.
As for what $10 is worth in the Phillipines I certainly understand that. The poolroom economy doesn't mirror the economy at large. People who gamble on pool aren't thinking of the prevailing wage.
I want to ask what happens if these kids lose? Say somebody with money is backing them and they lose? I am not going to go so far as to say that they get beat up for it. But I am going to guess that they don't get a lot of chances to keep playing on other people's money if they don't win. No victory, no payday, and no "job". And that's my point entirely.
Yeah, I can figure how tough it must be to try to earn a living as player in the Phillipines, especially when the GIs are gone and the odd white suckers are few and the champion caliber players many.
I am not losing to any ten year olds when I go to the Phillipines. You have to be at least 13 to play me.
When I go I am only going to play rotation anyway. We'll see how much of a spot they will give up in that game.
that's not the point. your original reply where you said if you had a backer you'd be giving spots too you made it sound like 10yr olds with backers and giving spots is nothing special.
Originally Posted by Roadie
I want to ask what happens if these kids lose? Say somebody with money is backing them and they lose? I am not going to go so far as to say that they get beat up for it. But I am going to guess that they don't get a lot of chances to keep playing on other people's money if they don't win. No victory, no payday, and no "job". And that's my point entirely.
Exactly, and that leads to the reason for the title of this thread. A facet of the pool culture here that leads to the reason how they got the tenacity.
Never heard of anybody here getting beat up unless they do something inappropriate. Like, let's say "dump"? Same as anywhere in the world, isn't it?
I want to ask what happens if these kids lose? Say somebody with money is backing them and they lose? I am not going to go so far as to say that they get beat up for it. But I am going to guess that they don't get a lot of chances to keep playing on other people's money if they don't win. No victory, no payday, and no "job". And that's my point entirely.
Exactly, and that leads to the reason for the title of this thread. A facet of the pool culture here that leads to the reason how they got the tenacity.
Never heard of anybody here getting beat up unless they do something inappropriate. Like, let's say "dump"? Same as anywhere in the world, isn't it?