piloted joint question.

I've shot exclusively with piloted SS 5/16x14 cues for the past 25 years...my Schon, CC, GEM and 2 Joss cues did not have pilots that snugged up against the inner walls of the joint sleeve. I love the hit and feedback...then I got a Rauenzahn built for me that had a compression fit in that joint and I really prefer that. I think you end up with a joint that has lateral and horizontal contact, interlocking and transmitting more vibration and feedback than those cues that don't have the contact between the pilot and the inner walls of the joint sleeve. Just my opinion, I like all of them, but I think there's definitely something to those compression fits.
 
qbilder said:
You don't want your pilot bottoming. It will compete with the joint face. Having something soft in the bottom will add nothing but can become an obstruction. It's best to have enough space that bottoming will never be a threat. Also the reason pilots are generally made of brass is because brass has an oily characteristic that lubricates itself. That's why bushings are most often brass. A brass insert will never wear out from being screwed into a steel joint collar.

And anybody who thinks cue makers don't use tolerances as tight as machinists, doesn't know much about cue making. Many of us used to be machinists, or still are. Try fitting an "A" joint where the forearm has points & expect the points to remain even if you don't follow tight tolerance in the machining. Or think about lining up rings the full length of the cue, even when the shaft is screwed down. The machining has to be absolute or else it doesn't work out. Very few times as a machinist did I have to perform more precise work than I do as a cue maker, and my cues are relatively simplistic. Try doing the things Thomas Wayne does without having an ultra high standard for tolerance. Granted not all cue makers do precise work, but anybody who's anybody in the cue world holds standards at least on par with typical machine shops.
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A few thousandths of an inch off can be seen by the naked eye. I think as you mention some cue makers are a cut above the rest and that is why their work is worth more. That kind of precision and attention to detail may not even be necessary for a good playing, cue but it is what sets them apart..

I remember one year I was at the BCA show and I was looking at a Richard Black cue a friend wanted to buy and I pulled out a loupe. He grabbed the cue out of my hand and held the cue at arms length and told me "This is the distance a cue is to be examined at". He may be right but some of these guys cues can stand up to being examined with a loupe, thats how good they are.
 
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Most people would agree that Gus Szamboti made some of the most sought after cues in history just based on "playability".

I read an interview somewhere where they asked Barry what he thought was the most important factor in the way his dad's cues played.

His answer was simple,and quick. He said it was the precision of the machining processes.

That was with manual machines,no readouts as far as I know,etc.

Keeping EVERYTHING as tight as possible is paramount in my mind,and that is why I plan on making mine with a tight,piloted joint unless asked.

While we're on this subject,for the guys that use the bare wood-type pilot,is there some kind of surface treatment for the wood that can minimize wear,or the sometimes dirty appearance? Tommy D.
 
poolguy4u said:
:p


Sorry...I'm not going to agree with you. I know better unlike others on these forums.:thumbup:
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I have to hand it to you, not many people can insult one person directly, then insult the entire forum membership indirectly and make himself look foolish using only 16 words.
 
logical said:
I have to hand it to you, not many people can insult one person directly, then insult the entire forum membership indirectly and make himself look foolish using only 16 words.
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Sorry...but not everyone will agree with you.



Since I do work on pool cues now, I have not needed my gauge blocks, radius gauge, dial indicator mikes, my Starret depth mike, my dial bore gauge or my tenth indicator. So far I haven't needed to put a 16 finish on anything either. I mostly use my calipers and my steel rule. Sure I use my drill blanks to measure hole diameters, but they aren't that critical and the depth doesn't have to be perfect.

I don't even need to make my pins and brass inserts anymore. They are all cheap enough to buy.

And no I did not mess with welds and brazing. The only brazing I did is when I made my own carbide cutting tools back in 1975. I needed to braze the insert onto the holder, then grind it.




Sorry if you don't know what I'm talking about.
If you don't understand something, just ask or google it.

Just because I disagree with someone, does not mean I insulted him.




To make a pool cue joint, a real machinist has no problem doing it.:thumbup:
 
Interesting thread.
I always thought that brass inserts in such joints were used for weight purposes and apart from lubricating charcteristics to prevent "overcontact-overheating" between the ss pin and the insert if the insert was from ss as well. That could lead to an overtight fit, difficult to take apart after playing.
No doubt the contact surface plays a part, even though there was a test (don't remember where I read it) that proved no significant feeling differences in hit among players that tested cues with different joints covered up, perhaps the most important feature is the weight of each joint, affecting cue balance.
IMHO a tight fit joint provides a "firm one piece feel" but at the same time a pro tapered shaft is not allowed to flex as much during hit which could lead to a shaft developing a slight warp. A less tight fit in such joints could on the other hand provide a bit more flexible hit which could feel better for some players, it's kind of a relative issue.
Petros
 
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Sorry, but this is why you will never be an elite craftsman.

We had a good thread going. I was learning a lot. Just because you dont agree with the PROFESSIONAL cue makers here, doesn't mean your correct.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 
Ok so I'll end this thread because its gotten off topic.

This guys arrogance astounds me. Sends me a private message calling me and everyone else an idiot. I guess just another old grump.

Anyhow, thanks for all the info put in from everyone.

Maybe one day I'll get my hands on one of those Sugartree's. Have a good one everybody.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 
I make my pilot joints with the male pilot on the same side as the pin. The female pilot is on the shaft, so is the same side as the threaded hole.
The rational for this is, after time, things wear. It is easy to re-bush the shaft hole if that is the side that has worn , or to re-sleeve the male pilot on the handle side, if that has worn.
I never did understand the rational behind the spigot pilot on shafts with the recessed female pilot on the same side as the pin.
Neil
 
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