Pivoting systems and their relationship to CTE

[BeiberLvr]

Dan,

I think you know that you are suspending your grasp on reality.

That is what I briefly did when I first heard John Barton mention a Totally objective aiming system or perhaps he said method..

Then reality started creeping back but I was still hopeful...

then I saw the 5 shots video.

If there is some science of which I am not aware & it could be true...

then I would be all over it... just I was enthused when I first heard about.

All the Best for You & Yours,
Rick

Here's something that may shed some light on what's happening. A simple experiment anyone can do.

Taking the 1st and 5th shot from the 5 shots example we are all so enamored with.

Set up the first shot as a cut to the left. Get your visuals, and perform a strict 1/2 tip manual left pivot. Note where your tip is aimed at on the object ball after you pivot.

Now do the exact same thing with the fifth shot. What do you want to bet your tip won't be aimed at the same spot on the object ball? But why? After all, the balls are the same distance apart, the same visuals were used, and you performed the same pivot.

I believe this is part of the WHY you are able to get different angles.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am just about done here.....it is hard to pull the trigger but between you and Dan...I just really do not want to be on here but I will leave the door cracked open....

This forum can have you two birds.

Stan Shuffett

Sir.

I've opened more than one thread just for those that want to learn more about Your CTE for you to respond or teach. That could certainly be done again here by anyone or Mr. Wilson or Mike could open it.

I think that anyone that sincerely wants to give your methods a go should have the opportunity to get help from you... without the validity questions coming up. But... I would think that you would have your own mechanism in place for that.

That said there also should be a place where those that do not agree with your assessment of what it is can raise questions & discuss such.

The thing is that you have not just tried to teach it here...you have tried to 'sell' it on here. That is where part of the issues lay, because you say things ABOUT it that rather many do NOT agree & those that are not committed should be able to hear both sides & then make there own determinations whether they want invest their time & money on it or not.

Fair is fair & censorship has never really come out as anything really good.

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here's something that may shed some light on what's happening. A simple experiment anyone can do.

Taking the 1st and 5th shot from the 5 shots example we are all so enamored with.

Set up the first shot as a cut to the left. Get your visuals, and perform a strict 1/2 tip manual left pivot. Note where your tip is aimed at on the object ball after you pivot.

Now do the exact same thing with the fifth shot. What do you want to bet your tip won't be aimed at the same spot on the object ball? But why? After all, the balls are the same distance apart, the same visuals were used, and you performed the same pivot.

I believe this is part of the WHY you are able to get different angles.

Again, thank you for THIS civil post.

The thing is that some of us have shot those 5 shots & our cue ball DID hit the same spot on the OB & we got the same outcome angle & that is what should happen IF the procedure is executed OBJECTIVELY & with no subjective interpretations.

Like Dan has said... if we all can remain civil & stop the name calling & character assassinations & crap... then perhaps we could come to some agreement & the proper words & descriptions could be had & perhaps agreed upon.

I rather doubt that that will happen because of thing I think are on the CTE side. But who really knows?

BUT... we are haters, word men, birds, weasels, etc. etc. etc. AND... we are all thrown in the same pigeon hole... when we are all not the same & do not have the same objections & not for the same reasons.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

 

[GoldenFlash]

On and on and on and on and on it goes

Again, thank you for THIS civil post.

The thing is that some of us have shot those 5 shots & our cue ball DID hit the same spot on the OB & we got the same outcome angle & that is what should happen IF the procedure is executed OBJECTIVELY & with no subjective interpretations.
Like Dan has said... if we all can remain civil & stop the name calling & character assassinations & crap... then perhaps we could come to some agreement & the proper words & descriptions could be had & perhaps agreed upon.
I rather doubt that that will happen because of thing I think are on the CTE side. But who really knows?
BUT... we are haters, word men, birds, weasels, etc. etc. etc. AND... we are all thrown in the same pigeon hole... when we are all not the same & do not have the same objections & not for the same reasons.
Best Wishes for You & Yours.

Same old sarcasm, same old complaints (disguised as 'questions'), same old ridicule.
What a bunch of crud.
I don't blame Stan Shuffett for leaving this nonsense....I'd do the same thing if it was me.
:boring2:

 

[BeiberLvr]

Again, thank you for THIS civil post.

The thing is that some of us have shot those 5 shots & our cue ball DID hit the same spot on the OB & we got the same outcome angle & that is what should happen IF the procedure is executed OBJECTIVELY & with no subjective interpretations.

Like Dan has said... if we all can remain civil & stop the name calling & character assassinations & crap... then perhaps we could come to some agreement & the proper words & descriptions could be had & perhaps agreed upon.

I rather doubt that that will happen because of thing I think are on the CTE side. But who really knows?

BUT... we are haters, word men, birds, weasels, etc. etc. etc. AND... we are all thrown in the same pigeon hole... when we are all not the same & do not have the same objections & not for the same reasons.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

It's understandable (and perhaps expected) that you won't make every single shot when you are first learning CTE. I bet over 90% of players couldn't get proper draw on the ball when they first tried.

In fact, the infamous 5 shots weren't meant for someone with little to no experience, i.e. people like you and Dan.

Anyways, I challenge anyone to do what I laid out in my previous post. Then explain how the tip can be aimed at a different part on the object ball despite the cue ball and object ball being the same distance apart, using the same visuals, and performing the same 1/2 tip manual pivot.

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's understandable (and perhaps expected) that you won't make every single shot when you are first learning CTE. I bet over 90% of players couldn't get proper draw on the ball when they first tried.

In fact, the infamous 5 shots weren't meant for someone with little to no experience, i.e. people like you and Dan.

Anyways, I challenge anyone to do what I laid out in my previous post. Then explain how the tip can be aimed at a different part on the object ball despite the cue ball and object ball being the same distance apart, using the same visuals, and performing the same 1/2 tip manual pivot.

You make it sound like Dan & I who have not both been playing for longer than you've lived, as well as others like 8pack Anthony, Lou, Satori, etc. & that we have never lined up a cte shot or an edge to a quarter ball & have never made a 1/2 tip pivot ever before hearing about Stan's CTE.

It would be different if the 5 shots went near the pocket & were a slight missed, but that is NOT what happens when they are shot ONLY by the objective means. The balls come out at the SAME angle, as they should when all is done objectively the same. Do you think that we can not make those shots by getting into position the way we each normally play based on our Subjectively Learned Interpretation or "perception: of what those shots are supposed to look like? Sure we can.

I challenge you or anyone to explain what it is that OBJECTIVELY directs the shooter to a different physical position while looking at the SAME things & keeping the same relationship to those same lines.

That challenge has been out there by Patrick & others for many years... & yet no definitive answer regarding anything objective as ever been given by Stan or anyone else. Your perception of the shot is subjective & not objectively marked or indicated in any way... other than the ones that naturally fit the Two angles that are objectively delivered by the visual with the defined pivots in either direction.

It certainly would nice to KNOW what it is, wouldn't it? Well some of us know what it is NOT & have some rather good ideas of several mattesr that it can be... & the answer may be different for each individual.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. How do you use your eyes? Have you have been taught how to use your eyes by Stan?

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

 

[BeiberLvr]

You make it sound like Dan & I who have not both been playing for longer than you've lived, as well as others like 8pack Anthony, Lou, Satori, etc. & that we have never lined up a cte shot or an edge to a quarter ball & have never made a 1/2 tip pivot ever before hearing about Stan's CTE.

Well, considering you aren't able to make the shots as directed...

Unless it's just because you think I can follow simple instructions better than you. I guess that's always a possibility.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Let me ask you a couple of questions. How do you use your eyes? Have you have been taught how to use your eyes by Stan?

In terms of CTE? I just stand offset to the shotline. Find the visuals and sweep into the center cue ball.

Not using CTE? I stand directly behind the shotline and move in as straight as possible.

I don't believe Stan has offered me or anyone lessons on how to use their eyes.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well, considering you aren't able to make the shots as directed...

Unless it's just because you think I can follow simple instructions better than you. I guess that's always a possibility.

I knew it was too good to be true.

 

[ENGLISH!]

In terms of CTE? I just stand offset to the shotline. Find the visuals and sweep into the center cue ball.

Not using CTE? I stand directly behind the shotline and move in as straight as possible.

I don't believe Stan has offered me or anyone lessons on how to use their eyes.

Apparently you've missed a few posts of Stan's.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

I was not saying that there is a small finite number of angles that can be had from any "CTE" method.

What I was saying is that in 'Stan's' two lines 'system' those visuals that utilize the defined 'objective' points & the lines between them 'objectively' put the shooter on that ONE SINGULAR LINE where both visual lines can be seen equally & simultaneously.

From that SINGLE PHYSICAL LINE...

IF the pivot is precisely defined (such as a 1/2 tip offset & pivot to CCB) & IT is the ONLY one available & THE ONLY ONE USED then only one line to the OB for each side of pivot can be had for a total of ONLY TWO LINES from that objective visual.

Anything more is simply NOT obtained by an objective means but is instead obtained & delivered from out of the subjective realm.

Sure, so far I agree. With my system you only get one line out per visual. The other method has two per visual.

I'll just stop there other than to say...

I welcome anyone to show otherwise... but ONLY with SCIENCE & not any speculation of matters that simply are not true, such as that "the balls present themselves differently depending on where they are on the table" & that means that the edge is different & that the points on the balls are different.



Those points & lines are defined by the SINGULAR LINE where both can be seen equally & simultaneously. Hence they will yield the same Singular Physical Line where the TWO Lines can be seen Equally & Simultaneously every time regardless of where they are in the Universe or on any size & shape of table.

If an individual can not realize these simple facts then any discussion with them is futile & basically useless.

I sincerely hope that any post regarding this will be ON the subject matter & not attacks of the messenger... because the poster has nothing of significant substance to offer.

All the Best for You & Yours & ALL.
Rick

Let's use my 2D system as an example NOT Stan's Please! Don't know it, can't 'spainit. Here's a thought experiment that may help.

I'll use a watch of 2 1/4" diameter, same size as the balls encased in a transparent sphere. Set the watch to twelve o'clock. Put an object ball one diamond away from the side pocket. Put the watch one diamond away from the side pocket so the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock line through it defines a straight shot to the side. Get an C visual. Sight down the CTE line and note where it points on the rail. Just a little above the pocket. Place your tip pre-pivot, it will point at 12, 1/2 ball away from 9. (o'clock typing got old quickly) Do a 1/2 ball pivot and the tip is pointing down the 3-9 line and directly at the center of the object ball.

Keep the watch orientation the same and move it straight down 1/2 diamond. Get the same C visual. Sight down the CTE line. The line points much farther up table. You're at different place on the table and the SINGLE PHYSICAL LINE runs at a different angle. The place you put the tip pre-pivot has changed. You are not pointing at 12 but a little before 12. A half ball pivot from here will not be aimed at the center of the object ball but at an angle. This angle is proportional to the difference between the 12 position and the new position a little before 12.

The rotation is small but it's taken from the edge of the ball inward. Near the edge the difference between the point at 75* and the edge is very small. The sine of 90* is 1.00 and the sine of 75* is .966. Multiply by 100 to get percentage. Sin 90 is 100%, sin 75 is 96.6%. The last 3.4% of the radius 'contains' 15 degrees. A small difference will result in a large angle change.

I do not use any subjective adjustments with pivoting. I use it when I shoot CP as I search for the correct angle. I 'feel' the shot is right. When pivoting, I trust my visuals and pivot to put me on the shot line. I'll look at he object ball on occasion to double check I've used the correct one but I DON'T adjust my aim if it looks wrong. I'll try a different visual if it looks way off but if it's close and doesn't look right, I'll stand and take a more careful visual and pivot. If it still doesn't 'feel' right and I'm confident that everything was done correctly I take the shot. It's usually the right choice.

My subjective 'feeling' is not correct sometimes and I've learned to ignore it. Most of the time it's trying to lead me astray. I've said before that some shots I shoot 'blind' by getting a line through CCB and trusting it. If I ignore the OB my subjective is not in play for that shot. Subjective feelings are more likely to hurt my shot making rather than help it.

 

[Dan White]

Let's use my 2D system as an example NOT Stan's Please! Don't know it, can't 'spainit. Here's a thought experiment that may help.

I'll use a watch of 2 1/4" diameter, same size as the balls encased in a transparent sphere. Set the watch to twelve o'clock. Put an object ball one diamond away from the side pocket. Put the watch one diamond away from the side pocket so the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock line through it defines a straight shot to the side. Get an C visual. Sight down the CTE line and note where it points on the rail. Just a little above the pocket. Place your tip pre-pivot, it will point at 12, 1/2 ball away from 3. (o'clock typing got old quickly) Do a 1/2 ball pivot and the tip is pointing down the 3-9 line and directly at the center of the object ball.

Keep the watch orientation the same and move it straight down 1/2 diamond. Get the same C visual. Sight down the CTE line. The line points much farther up table. You're at different place on the table and the SINGLE PHYSICAL LINE runs at a different angle. The place you put the tip pre-pivot has changed. You are not pointing at 12 but a little before 12. A half ball pivot from here will not be aimed at the center of the object ball but at an angle. This angle is proportional to the difference between the 12 position and the new position a little before 12.

The rotation is small but it's taken from the edge of the ball inward. Near the edge the difference between the point at 75* and the edge is very small. The sine of 90* is 1.00 and the sine of 75* is .966. Multiply by 100 to get percentage. Sin 90 is 100%, sin 75 is 96.6%. The last 3.4% of the radius 'contains' 15 degrees. A small difference will result in a large angle change.

Re the bold. Not sure what you are saying about pointing at 12 o'clock. And, when you say 1/2 ball pivot, are you meaning to say 1/2 tip pivot? I'm interested in your math, but am having trouble getting past these two points.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Re the bold. Not sure what you are saying about pointing at 12 o'clock. And, when you say 1/2 ball pivot, are you meaning to say 1/2 tip pivot? I'm interested in your math, but am having trouble getting past these two points.

Place your tip pre-pivot, it will point at 12, 1/2 ball away from 3

When I point the tip it's at about a 15* angle to the cue ball. I don't think this angle is critical, just that it should be a constant one for a repeatable pivot. I keep the tip just inside the cue ball with the left contour of the tip matching the curve. At the tangent point of where the two circles meet. The left edge of the tip should be pointing at the 12 position.

I made an imaginary error when I said 3. It should have said 9. It's 90* away from 12 or a half ball. I'll correct it in the original.



Do a 1/2 ball pivot

I use a full half ball pivot with no half tip offset. When I pivot with an open bridge I'll turn my hips and/or body (depends on stance and comfort) and let the tip skate across the surface and stop at CCB. The pivot center of the cue stick isn't on the bridge V, but more toward the center of the stick. The guy at SpiderWebComm has a good video about it and he shows some good do's and don'ts about the technique. His video explains the concept better than my words. Highly recommended.

A closed bridge I keep loose and when I get to CCB I'll firm it up. The video shows a different way to do it so it depends on what works best for you.




You are not pointing at 12 but a little before 12.

The first A visual had the CTE line crossing the 3-9 line at a small angle, just above the pocket. The second A visual has the CTE line crossing at a larger angle. Something has rotated and we've been careful not to rotate the cue ball. Your line of sight has changed the angle you see. The edge you were looking at in the first visual isn't the same edge you see now. When you place the tip it's at the 'new' edge it's pointing a little before the 12.

 

[lfigueroa]

CTE is an outlier. CTE is a phenomena that exist outside of what is described as logical thinking.

Stan Shuffett

You do realize that it is this kind of talk that makes the whole CTE thing hard to swallow by those of us that prefer a little logic, right?

I think that, with great sincerity, you describe a system based upon what you see at the pool table. And like many of us, you have labeled certain elements of your personal reality concerning pool, to help in producing a consistent outcomes. You see the table and balls from a certain physical perspective, you descend into shooting position in a unique manner, and then you execute your stroke with a little hiccup, which is also unique to you.

But you are the only one out there with the hubris to claim that what you see and do will work for everyone else. It is just not so.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

:wink:

Let's use my 2D system as an example NOT Stan's Please! Don't know it, can't 'spainit. Here's a thought experiment that may help.

I'll use a watch of 2 1/4" diameter, same size as the balls encased in a transparent sphere. Set the watch to twelve o'clock. Put an object ball one diamond away from the side pocket. Put the watch one diamond away from the side pocket so the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock line through it defines a straight shot to the side. Get an C visual. Sight down the CTE line and note where it points on the rail. Just a little above the pocket. Place your tip pre-pivot, it will point at 12, 1/2 ball away from 9. (o'clock typing got old quickly) Do a 1/2 ball pivot and the tip is pointing down the 3-9 line and directly at the center of the object ball.

Keep the watch orientation the same and move it straight down 1/2 diamond. Get the same C visual. Sight down the CTE line. The line points much farther up table. You're at different place on the table and the SINGLE PHYSICAL LINE runs at a different angle. The place you put the tip pre-pivot has changed. You are not pointing at 12 but a little before 12. A half ball pivot from here will not be aimed at the center of the object ball but at an angle. This angle is proportional to the difference between the 12 position and the new position a little before 12.

The rotation is small but it's taken from the edge of the ball inward. Near the edge the difference between the point at 75* and the edge is very small. The sine of 90* is 1.00 and the sine of 75* is .966. Multiply by 100 to get percentage. Sin 90 is 100%, sin 75 is 96.6%. The last 3.4% of the radius 'contains' 15 degrees. A small difference will result in a large angle change.

I do not use any subjective adjustments with pivoting. I use it when I shoot CP as I search for the correct angle. I 'feel' the shot is right. When pivoting, I trust my visuals and pivot to put me on the shot line. I'll look at he object ball on occasion to double check I've used the correct one but I DON'T adjust my aim if it looks wrong. I'll try a different visual if it looks way off but if it's close and doesn't look right, I'll stand and take a more careful visual and pivot. If it still doesn't 'feel' right and I'm confident that everything was done correctly I take the shot. It's usually the right choice.

My subjective 'feeling' is not correct sometimes and I've learned to ignore it. Most of the time it's trying to lead me astray. I've said before that some shots I shoot 'blind' by getting a line through CCB and trusting it. If I ignore the OB my subjective is not in play for that shot. Subjective feelings are more likely to hurt my shot making rather than help it.

Good Morning Larry,

That is flawed. You're saying the same type things that Stan's CTEers say.

Boy! Where do I start? Let's start with the word "different" & add in Einstein's Relativity.

We need to put the word "different" into the proper context & I guess the word "angle" too, since it is joined with "different".

Let's set an OB at center pocket sitting on the edge of the shelf at a corner pocket... & then place the CB down the long rail but on the same side of the side pocket & parallel to the rail so that the Center LINE is parallel to the rail.

Now... let's move that CB one 'tic' at a time for 90* of rotation toward the other corner pocket until the shot line gets parallel to the short rail. We then have 90 straight in shots & we could have an infinite number.

They are all "different"... yet they are all the SAME.

They are all on "different" parts of the table. Yet... they are all THE SAME one ball RELATIVE to the other & the LINES between the balls are ALL the SAME... One Ball RELATIVE to the Other Ball.

Let me say that again.

THEY ARE ON THE SAME ANGLE & WITH THE SAME LINES RELATIVE ONE BALL TO THE OTHER. THE LINES ARE SET BY RELATIVITY... ONE BALL TO THE OTHER BALL.... Even though they each are on 'different' parts of the table.

Now do a similar thing... pull the OB straight out of the pocket toward the diagonal side pocket about a diamond's length... then set up a ghost ball on it. We now have a cut shot. Now extend a line through the Ghost Ball/OB center lines to the point on the shelf where the OB sat for ALL 90 (or infinite #) of the straight in shots.

Now rotate the whole mess, the 3 balls & the STRAIGHT LINES between them with that point at the pocket shelf as the apex point.

Rotate that whole set up, the 3 balls & especially the LINES between them 1 'tic' at a time toward the short rail until the LINE through the Ghost Ball/OB gets parallel to the short rail.

I do not know how many degrees of rotation that that actually is. So I do not know how many DIFFERENT shots that it is, but it is a significantly high number & it could be an infinite number.

They are all "DIFFERENT" but the LINES are the SAME... RELATIVE ONE BALL to THE OTHER.

It is the balls that SET the LINES & NOT where they are on the table.

Sorry for the Caps. I'm not yelling. I'm just highlighting certain words.

I certainly hope that you can understand what I am trying to say.

You just received a brief example of Einstein's Relativity.

You need to rotate your watch face.

I hope that you do not have any questions, but if so, I will do my best to answer them... For You.

I'm not inclined to waste time with 'haters' of the scientific truth.

All the Best for You & Yours,
Rick

 

[Vorpal Cue]

You do realize that it is this kind of talk that makes the whole CTE thing hard to swallow by those of us that prefer a little logic, right?

I think that, with great sincerity, you describe a system based upon what you see at the pool table. And like many of us, you have labeled certain elements of your personal reality concerning pool, to help in producing a consistent outcomes. You see the table and balls from a certain physical perspective, you descend into shooting position in a unique manner, and then you execute your stroke with a little hiccup, which is also unique to you.

But you are the only one out there with the hubris to claim that what you see and do will work for everyone else. It is just not so.

Lou Figueroa

If you've come to bicker with Stan you're in the wrong thread. I'm trying to keep on point about a 2D pivoting system and the mechanics about it. The thread got away from me as I took some time off and didn't get back for a day. The off topic comments clutter up the conversation and serve no purpose. This thread is NOT about a 3D CTE world. Please respect my position.

 

[GoldenFlash]

You do realize that it is this kind of talk that makes the whole CTE thing hard to swallow by those of us that prefer a little logic, right?
I think that, with great sincerity, you describe a system based upon what you see at the pool table. And like many of us, you have labeled certain elements of your personal reality concerning pool, to help in producing a consistent outcomes. You see the table and balls from a certain physical perspective, you descend into shooting position in a unique manner, and then you execute your stroke with a little hiccup, which is also unique to you.
But you are the only one out there with the hubris to claim that what you see and do will work for everyone else. It is just not so.
Lou Figueroa

If what you say (I've highlighted in blue) is true and accurate, why can't someone else learn, from good and wholesome instruction, to copy and do the exact same things? Enabling themselves thereby to pocket balls like Stan does?
(the facts are that others ARE learning to do the same things. Even though there are some who lose big money to you while claiming they are doing those things when actually they are not)
CTE is not a haphazard system of pocketing balls filled with fear or uncertainty. It is very precise. And very narrow is the gate leading to an extremely high percentage of success. While the path to destruction and mediocrity is wide and filled with many pitfalls, confusion, and disappointments.

 

[GoldenFlash]

:wink:

I certainly hope that you can understand what I am trying to say.
You just received a brief example of Einstein's Relativity.
I'm not inclined to waste time with 'haters' of the scientific truth.

All the Best for You & Yours,
Rick

Oh man oh man.....
E=MC2 is now being applied to pool shooting?
(maybe the "wink" icon means something. Otherwise this is absurd)

 

[Vorpal Cue]

If what you say (I've highlighted in blue) is true and accurate, why can't someone else learn, from good and wholesome instruction, to copy and do the exact same things? Enabling themselves thereby to pocket balls like Stan does?
(the facts are that others ARE learning to do the same things. Even though there are some who lose big money to you while claiming they are doing those things when actually they are not)
CTE is not a haphazard system of pocketing balls filled with fear or uncertainty. It is very precise. And very narrow is the gate leading to an extremely high percentage of success. While the path to destruction and mediocrity is wide and filled with many pitfalls, confusion, and disappointments.

Alice? Remember Alice? The song's about Alice. See Arlo Guthrie for additional details.

Please keep on topic

 

[ENGLISH!]

Oh man oh man.....
E=MC2 is now being applied to pool shooting?
(maybe the "wink" icon means something. Otherwise this is absurd)

Only a complete... whatever...

would THINK that I was applying that formula with the Speed of Light in it to shooting pool in my post & I know you are not any of those whatevers... so there must be another reason for your post...

& I think ALL non biased neutral members understand just what that reason is.

BUT...

F=MxA is all throughout the playing of the game...as are other physics principles.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.