Play good one day, bad another? It's just science.

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
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Ran across this video that talked about why someone that does well one day can do worse the next, or is almost guaranteed to do worse if they performed over their average skill level. So we should not really feel bad if we run 3 racks one day then miss 10 times in 3 racks the next and why total skill should not be judged by the best or worst performance.

 
Ran across this video that talked about why someone that does well one day can do worse the next, or is almost guaranteed to do worse if they performed over their average skill level. So we should not really feel bad if we run 3 racks one day then miss 10 times in 3 racks the next and why total skill should not be judged by the best or worst performance.

There is also a video Fargorate The Myth Of Consistency that explains this phenomenon in pool.

 
There is also a video Fargorate The Myth Of Consistency that explains this phenomenon in pool.

I don’t know. The video is kind of hard to comprehend. I mean it makes sense. But in the real world I haven’t seen it. That curve has to narrow up higher. I can see a 350 beating a 550 which is a 200 difference, but can’t recall ever seeing a 550 on their best day beating a 700 on their worst day. That’s only a 150 point difference. Unless it was 9 ball and the 550 had a spot, or just kept slopping at the 9 for the win. Then again the rating system seems a bit lax at the lower to mid levels. IMO they should really just have 2-5 and then start getting more specific over 550-600. I don’t want to type a book here. So it’s just a thought and I’ll stop there.
 
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I don’t know. The video is kind of hard to comprehend. I mean it makes sense. But in the real world I haven’t seen it. That curve has to narrow up higher. I can see a 350 beating a 550 which is a 200 difference, but can’t recall ever seeing a 550 on their best day beating a 700 on their worst day. That’s only a 150 point difference. Unless it was 9 ball and the 550 had a spot, or just kept slopping at the 9 for the win. Then again the rating system seems a bit lax at the lower to mid levels. IMO they should really just have 2-5 and then start getting more specific over 550-600. I don’t want to type a book here. So it’s just a thought and I’ll stop there.
When I was about a 550 I beat a a 700 one time 9-ball race to 10. All it takes is for the 700 to rattle some balls they normally make with 5 or less balls on the table, and the 550 to make some shots they normally don't and it can become close. The 700 is a former lesser known touring pro, an alcoholic and was drunk (He always is drunk). I won't say his name but there are people here who would know it. Either way the odds would still be with the 700 as he would play like a 640 and the 550 would play like a 610. This isn't totally unreasonable, a B player playing like a B+ and an A player playing like a B+.

I do agree with you though that generally as the fargorate goes up the bell curve narrows and the swing would tend to be less than 60 points. In one line he says in the video I think he implies this.
 
YES YES YES YES YES!!!

People are deceived by their best game. They think "I already know how to play because I ran 5 racks that time, I just need to improve my consistency, that comes from fundamentals, I'll stroke into this coke bottle 1,000 times a day I'll have the stroke of a cue testing robot and then the world will see my greatness..."

This is why so many people have such a fundamental fetish. Fundamentals are an important link in the chain but in most cases of advanced players (say 550+ FR) they are not the weakest link. Furthermore your best game isn't good enough, because if you want to play the way you play at your best all of the time you have to develop your skill set substantially so that your new best game is quite a bit better, so it drags your entire range up and your new worst game is way better. This means you need to develop many other skills way beyond fundamentals to improve your best game.

Also, playing at your worst is always challenging mentally. Most people's goal is to consistently play their best from today. They do this because the goal feels achievable (they already play that way sometimes). But beyond that there's another reason: It is FUN to play at your peak. Therefor they conclude they will have more fun if they play that way all the time. Their goal is to maximize their joy payoff so they decide they need to play good every session. So then when they have a bad session they get really upset, because this isn't on the road to that 'consistent dead stroke one long joy session' they are striving for. They get really frustrated and beat themselves up. They decide they will punish and whip and criticize themselves until they play good all the time. This is their brilliant long term strategy designed to lead to the buried treasure of constant flow and euphoria.

It doesn't work! That is the worst strategy ever. All it does is sabotage performance, growth, and improvement, all while forming a habit of being miserable at the pool table. Building a habit of misery doesn't lead to future joy! Nor does self abuse lead to optimal performance. Much better to form a habit of enjoying the current level of performance. Oh, I already know the argument, "I need to catch myself doing something wrong, and I need to motivate myself to improve, otherwise I'll never get better". That is the ego throwing a fit because it doesn't like to have it's role diminished. I just put in an 8 hour practice session yesterday, 6 hours of the hardest stuff I've ever worked on consecutively, and I did it with the fuel of enthusiasm and passion, and celebration of each small success (not criticism of each small failure). I had the best day ever yesterday. I think I played pretty well too but I wasn't even paying attention to results so I guess I'm not sure. It can be done. It's a habit.

In short, consistency is impossible and self abuse until you achieve an impossible goal is a great way to ruin the most amazing game of all time.
 
I don’t know. The video is kind of hard to comprehend. I mean it makes sense. But in the real world I haven’t seen it. That curve has to narrow up higher. I can see a 350 beating a 550 which is a 200 difference, but can’t recall ever seeing a 550 on their best day beating a 700 on their worst day. That’s only a 150 point difference. Unless it was 9 ball and the 550 had a spot, or just kept slopping at the 9 for the win. Then again the rating system seems a bit lax at the lower to mid levels. IMO they should really just have 2-5 and then start getting more specific over 550-600. I don’t want to type a book here. So it’s just a thought and I’ll stop there.

My son when he was under 600 beat Shaw who was an 800 playing in a tournament. I am a 550ish and I beat an almost 700 just a few weeks ago, also even. It's very rare but happens. The good thing about Fargo is that it's all just math, which is as pure of a science that you can get, but it also can give some odd results that may cause issues when people try to apply human "logic" or "intuition" to it. For example, for a while people doing posts that the women Fargo ratings must be different than the male Fargo ratings, so a 750 woman was not as good as a 750 man, but that is not the case. There are also arguments like "well it does not track games like one handed behind the back last pocket 8 ball played on 14 foot tables, and I know one person in Alaska that can beat the best players at that so the system is no good".
 
YES YES YES YES YES!!!

People are deceived by their best game. They think "I already know how to play because I ran 5 racks that time, I just need to improve my consistency, that comes from fundamentals, I'll stroke into this coke bottle 1,000 times a day I'll have the stroke of a cue testing robot and then the world will see my greatness..."

-- snip ---

In short, consistency is impossible and self abuse until you achieve an impossible goal is a great way to ruin the most amazing game of all time.

Yep, I did the post because there are quite a few posts talking about when someone plays amazing one week then dogs it the next. It's all normal and will simply average out to the skill level of the player. There is no secret to playing as good as your best game except to get your average game to the level of your best game right now.
 
My point is to get to 450-500 all you really need is a good understanding of the basics of the game. As in you can probably hit everything center and be a 500. I see it as getting to 500 is just having an understanding of the game over 500 is putting it into use. Then again some people are different than others. I don’t see many players getting the 500 on safeties and shape play though….
That comes later.
 
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A 550 has a better chance against a 700 then a 350 against a 550. The 550 can occasionally make his opponent pay for their mistake, the 350 almost never does.

350 vs 550 is 200 point difference, 550 vs 700 is only 150 pts. In a short race (to 5), the difference is a 2% chance vs almost 6% chance.


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350 vs 550 is 200 point difference, 550 vs 700 is only 150 pts. In a short race (to 5), the difference is a 2% chance vs almost 6% chance.


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It’s not though. There’s only 9 balls on the table. Someone who typically runs 2-3 balls vs someone who runs 4-5 balls has a better chance to win than that 4-5 ball against somebody who runs out racks regularly. Some of you will get what I’m saying some of you wont but once you get better you’ll see what I’m talking about. It’s not about making balls anymore at that point. If everyone was well rounded at lower to mid tiers it would be a different story. I’m talking about most in that range.
 
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It’s not though. There’s only 9 balls on the table. Someone who typically runs 2-3 balls vs someone who runs 4-5 balls has a better chance to win than that 4-5 ball against somebody who runs out racks regularly. Some of you will get what I’m saying some of you wont but once you get better you’ll see what I’m talking about. It’s not about making balls anymore at that point. If everyone was well rounded at lower to mid tiers it would be a different story. I’m talking about most in that range. Most are typically offensive players.

If the results are set like that in Fargo they are correct. Remember that there is a difference between a 550 vs a 700 also in how they can finish. It is all taken into account in statistics. While a 350 playing a 550 is likely to make less balls given an open table, it does not mean they will do better than a 550 vs a 700 when the 550 will rarely get to the table with a clean open shot due to a miss or a mistake and when the 700 steps to the table they are not likely to miss nearly as much as the 550.

Although what you wrote seems to missing some words in the third sentence as I'm not sure what your point was.

Remember HOW the player wins does not matter one bit to statistics Fargo uses. If you were lucky enough where every player you played missed the 8 and 9 on you every game, then you can be an 830 Fargo and it's all normal, because you would be beating those players, in the eyes of math. However that will pretty much never happen, again due to probability, so the rating is what it is based on what it tracks, and it works well with good data. At the end of the day, when you track 1,000 matches someone plays against players, it's correct even if some human intuition does not want it to be. As long as the data is "good". If you track 500 matches in a league that has sandbaggers and then 500 vs honest players, that will skew the results, but nothing can be done there.

This is why Fargo is the average performance of a player, not their top or worse speed. Which is the point of the post for those that get frustrated they play good one day then have a week of worse performance.
 
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This is why Fargo is the average performance of a player, not their top or worse speed. Which is the point of the post for those that get frustrated they play good one day then have a week of worse performance.
Yes I get it. Everybody misses! Don’t let it get you down. I was trying to help some out here. And I will now. To break it down. A typical 550 has around a 600-650 offense and probably a 450-500 defense. Typically. Because most 550 are usually offense oriented. A 700 has probably something around a 675 and 725 offense and defense or defense and offense. Less variance and better rounded. So therefore. How is a 700 going to end up without a narrower curve. Any well rounded player will have a narrower curve because the differences in their complete game is less. That’s the variable that science doesn’t consider. It just bases everything on a well rounded player. Most the higher rated ones are the lower are sometimes.
 
... A typical 550 has around a 600-650 offense and probably a 450-500 defense. Typically. ...
Well, no. A typical 550 has both the offense and defense of a typical 550. Maybe you mean that weaker players are really bad at defense. That I could go along with. The counterexample of this is the many lower-level league players who play great steaming gobs of defense (largely when there is no point to it).

I don't think a pair of 800-rated players will have a smaller variance in the scores of the matches they play than a pair of 500-rated players. It might be a little smaller if they play alternate breaks and a little larger with winner breaks. Alex P. lost to Kaci 8-0 as I recall.
 
Well, no. A typical 550 has both the offense and defense of a typical 550. Maybe you mean that weaker players are really bad at defense. That I could go along with. The counterexample of this is the many lower-level league players who play great steaming gobs of defense (largely when there is no point to it).

I don't think a pair of 800-rated players will have a smaller variance in the scores of the matches they play than a pair of 500-rated players. It might be a little smaller if they play alternate breaks and a little larger with winner breaks. Alex P. lost to Kaci 8-0 as I recall.
8racks of 10b no less.
 
Well, no. A typical 550 has both the offense and defense of a typical 550. Maybe you mean that weaker players are really bad at defense. That I could go along with. The counterexample of this is the many lower-level league players who play great steaming gobs of defense (largely when there is no point to it).

I don't think a pair of 800-rated players will have a smaller variance in the scores of the matches they play than a pair of 500-rated players. It might be a little smaller if they play alternate breaks and a little larger with winner breaks. Alex P. lost to Kaci 8-0 as I recall.
I see what you are saying with the averages Bob. But I haven’t seen many great players throwing their real shot out there against a 500 either, and they still win most of the time….I’m not going to worry about locking the cue ball behind 2 balls against a real 500. I’m going to leave them long or with a bank and even if they make it, they aren’t running out anyway. Then I pocket the last 2-3 balls for the win. And right now I’m only up around a true 600. But I’ve been better than that previously and working my way back to good. I would never leave a 700+ with just a long shot or a bank unless it was a mistake.
 
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Yes I get it. Everybody misses! Don’t let it get you down. I was trying to help some out here. And I will now. To break it down. A typical 550 has around a 600-650 offense and probably a 450-500 defense. Typically. Because most 550 are usually offense oriented. A 700 has probably something around a 675 and 725 offense and defense or defense and offense. Less variance and better rounded. So therefore. How is a 700 going to end up without a narrower curve. Any well rounded player will have a narrower curve because the differences in their complete game is less. That’s the variable that science doesn’t consider. It just bases everything on a well rounded player. Most the higher rated ones are the lower are sometimes.

Actually yes the stats to take into account everything, because what causes one to win is both defense and offence. Again, the ratings don't care how you win, just the fact you won. If it was a break and run or a safe and run out with ball in hand, the stats show the same thing, nothing is separated. Just the higher lever players have a higher average game and when they play worse or better it's generally within a smaller +- range. When someone is a 550 it does not mean at all they shoot like a 650 and play safe like a 450, it just means the players they play even with are also 550 and the players they lose to are higher. You are trying to use human logic and feelings to explain statistics which tends to fail, there is nothing extra to read into things. Yes some players are straight shooters that don't play safe much, but those are all going to average out to a specific overall rating due to win/loss records.
 
Actually yes the stats to take into account everything, because what causes one to win is both defense and offence. Again, the ratings don't care how you win, just the fact you won. If it was a break and run or a safe and run out with ball in hand, the stats show the same thing, nothing is separated. Just the higher lever players have a higher average game and when they play worse or better it's generally within a smaller +- range. When someone is a 550 it does not mean at all they shoot like a 650 and play safe like a 450, it just means the players they play even with are also 550 and the players they lose to are higher. You are trying to use human logic and feelings to explain statistics which tends to fail, there is nothing extra to read into things. Yes some players are straight shooters that don't play safe much, but those are all going to average out to a specific overall rating due to win/loss records.
I’m going off of the fargorate video above that states all players have the same curve no matter their avg ability. You just restated my point which was better players have a more narrow curve, when you said higher avg players have less variance between good and bad days. Anyway what I’ve been saying has been proven by the video anyway and easily with math. Because a 100 point variance for a 550 is a higher percent than a 100 point variance for a 700. But I would personally say it would only be a 50-80 variance on higher skilled players.
 
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