Playing on fast tables-help

J

Jerry R

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All league season I shoot in bars on what I would call medium to slow tables.
Then tournament time we play on fast tables and I have a hard time controlling cue ball speed. If I let up on my stroke I really struggle with getting the cue ball to react the way I want it to.

I understand this is more of an issue with me than equipment, but I'm wondering if using a softer tip would help.
Would the lower energy transfer of the soft tip let me keep more of my normal stroke and slow down the cue ball?
 
There are three components to èvery stroke...

Tip position at contact.

Speed of follow through.

Length of follow through.

These three components in the correct combination, result in a cue ball coming off the object ball with the proper speed, and as a general rule, sliding off most contacts.

On a slow cloth, the cue ball is being driven across the cloth firmly, with a longer, faster stroke, and generally with a lower tip position to make sure the cue ball is still sliding after it contacts the cue ball.

Change to a faster cloth, and what changes? Less friction on the cue ball means both less speed on the cue ball is needed, and you don't to strike so far below center to maintain slide across the cloth.

So, as a general rule, when moving from slow cloth to fast cloth, use a shorter stroke, keeping the speed of stroke the same, and not contacting the cue ball so far below center. The one thing you NEVER do is intentionally slow down your stroke, as this induces anticipation and "steering" of the cue tip.

A shorter stroke with the same tip speed results in an overall slower cue ball speed when arriving at the object ball. I am sure there are a bunch of purists who will disagree that this is physically possible, but this way of describing it is probably the clearest for a beginner/intermediate player.

Short Bus Russ
 
ShortBusRuss said:
There are three components to èvery stroke...

Tip position at contact.

Speed of follow through.

Length of follow through.

These three components in the correct combination, result in a cue ball coming off the object ball with the proper speed, and as a general rule, sliding off most contacts.

On a slow cloth, the cue ball is being driven across the cloth firmly, with a longer, faster stroke, and generally with a lower tip position to make sure the cue ball is still sliding after it contacts the cue ball.

Change to a faster cloth, and what changes? Less friction on the cue ball means both less speed on the cue ball is needed, and you don't to strike so far below center to maintain slide across the cloth.

So, as a general rule, when moving from slow cloth to fast cloth, use a shorter stroke, keeping the speed of stroke the same, and not contacting the cue ball so far below center. The one thing you NEVER do is intentionally slow down your stroke, as this induces anticipation and "steering" of the cue tip.

A shorter stroke with the same tip speed results in an overall slower cue ball speed when arriving at the object ball. I am sure there are a bunch of purists who will disagree that this is physically possible, but this way of describing it is probably the clearest for a beginner/intermediate player.

Short Bus Russ
Click to expand...

That makes a lot of sense. I guess I never really thought about shortening the stroke to lower the power.

I'll give that a try.
 
Jerry R said:
All league season I shoot in bars on what I would call medium to slow tables.
Then tournament time we play on fast tables and I have a hard time controlling cue ball speed. If I let up on my stroke I really struggle with getting the cue ball to react the way I want it to.

I understand this is more of an issue with me than equipment, but I'm wondering if using a softer tip would help.
Would the lower energy transfer of the soft tip let me keep more of my normal stroke and slow down the cue ball?
Click to expand...

At times I use extra rails for position, especially when balls are on the same side and I have a bit too much angle, instead of trying to hold up the cueball, hit it harder and go up and down the table to the same place.

I have the same issue as you, on Tuesday a tournament I play in is on newer Simonis cloth and newer Diamond rails, on Wed we play in another place with old rails and nappy cloth. Usually my first lag on Wed reaches the side pockets LOL
 
Jerry R said:
That makes a lot of sense. I guess I never really thought about shortening the stroke to lower the power.

I'll give that a try.
Click to expand...

No problem..

In general, a good way to think about an individual pool shot is to consider how far you want the CB sliding across the cloth as it approaches the OB..

If you go back and start watching professional matches, you will notice that on all shots over a certain distance, that the professional will make sure that they stroke the ball such that the CB is sliding at least 3/4 of the way to the OB. The reason for this is simple... If there is a slight error in the stroke and the player puts unintentional side English on the CB, as long as the CB is sliding across the cloth, the side English will have little effect on the CB path.

It is when the friction of the cloth begins to win out and the CB begins to slow down and begin rolling forward, that if any unintentional English is on the ball, that the CB will begin to move in the direction of the English. The further this "turnover" happens from the OB, the more time the CB has to move sideways out of the intended path, generally resulting in under/over cutting the ball slightly and running short/long as a result, or just plain missing..

Cliffs notes version of this post.... Start paying more attention to how far the CB slides on each individual shot, both in your games and the pros that you watch... Having that firmly in mind when you play will make it much easier to adjust the three elements of the stroke as needed. And, in general, the actual "speed" of the stroke should be firm to medium firm, so this really only requires you to adjust the other two variables, tip position and length of stroke.

Short Bus Russ
 
Jerry R said:
All league season I shoot in bars on what I would call medium to slow tables.
Then tournament time we play on fast tables and I have a hard time controlling cue ball speed. If I let up on my stroke I really struggle with getting the cue ball to react the way I want it to.

I understand this is more of an issue with me than equipment, but I'm wondering if using a softer tip would help.
Would the lower energy transfer of the soft tip let me keep more of my normal stroke and slow down the cue ball?
Click to expand...
Fast cloth and lively cushions on small tables is a tough combination, as your positioning zones for your CB have a smaller margin of error than on a bigger table. It helps, when you can, to limit your CB movement and try to keep your positioning patterns simpler. Bottom line - if you don't get to practice on fast bar tables before a big tournament, it's very hard to adjust. The better players will usually make that adjustment faster.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Fast cloth and lively cushions on small tables is a tough combination, as your positioning zones for your CB have a smaller margin of error than on a bigger table. It helps, when you can, to limit your CB movement and try to keep your positioning patterns simpler. Bottom line - if you don't get to practice on fast bar tables before a big tournament, it's very hard to adjust. The better players will usually make that adjustment faster.
Click to expand...

The only time I play on small tables is at the Expo. I'd rather they be fast. Love em. I find a soft touch works and let your english move the CB.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Fast cloth and lively cushions on small tables is a tough combination, as your positioning zones for your CB have a smaller margin of error than on a bigger table. It helps, when you can, to limit your CB movement and try to keep your positioning patterns simpler. Bottom line - if you don't get to practice on fast bar tables before a big tournament, it's very hard to adjust. The better players will usually make that adjustment faster.
Click to expand...

Very true! I recently played in a 3 day event with 9, 8, and 10 ball. I only had one win in the 8 and 9 ball, but Sunday in the 10 ball I made it 2nd place. took me that long to adjust my game, but I mostly tried to have more straight in stop shots to avoid letting the cue ball go which helped.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
No problem..

In general, a good way to think about an individual pool shot is to consider how far you want the CB sliding across the cloth as it approaches the OB..

If you go back and start watching professional matches, you will notice that on all shots over a certain distance, that the professional will make sure that they stroke the ball such that the CB is sliding at least 3/4 of the way to the OB. The reason for this is simple... If there is a slight error in the stroke and the player puts unintentional side English on the CB, as long as the CB is sliding across the cloth, the side English will have little effect on the CB path.

It is when the friction of the cloth begins to win out and the CB begins to slow down and begin rolling forward, that if any unintentional English is on the ball, that the CB will begin to move in the direction of the English. The further this "turnover" happens from the OB, the more time the CB has to move sideways out of the intended path, generally resulting in under/over cutting the ball slightly and running short/long as a result, or just plain missing..

Cliffs notes version of this post.... Start paying more attention to how far the CB slides on each individual shot, both in your games and the pros that you watch... Having that firmly in mind when you play will make it much easier to adjust the three elements of the stroke as needed. And, in general, the actual "speed" of the stroke should be firm to medium firm, so this really only requires you to adjust the other two variables, tip position and length of stroke.

Short Bus Russ
Click to expand...

Good info! Thanks.
 
philly said:
The only time I play on small tables is at the Expo. I'd rather they be fast. Love em. I find a soft touch works and let your english move the CB.
Click to expand...

I spent some time watching Jesse Engel play and he has a very smooth soft stroke. Also uses a soft tip and you couldn't even hear the tip contact the ball. I talked to him a bit after a match and he comment about letting the English do the work.
 
Jerry R said:
I spent some time watching Jesse Engel play and he has a very smooth soft stroke. Also uses a soft tip and you couldn't even hear the tip contact the ball. I talked to him a bit after a match and he comment about letting the English do the work.
Click to expand...

Funny. I use a hard pressed Triangle. I get more responsive english off of a harder tip since more stroke gets transferred to the ball because the harder tip absorbs less of the stroke than a softer tip. I think grip from a tip is a joke. Tips don't have opposable thumbs and they hit for a millionth of second no matter how hard or soft the tip is. JMHO.

Anyhow moving the ball with english on a fast small table works for me rather than a power stroke. Finesse game for sure given those conditions.
 
I think that ShortBusRus has it right. Typically when you try to slow down the same length stroke you used on slower cloth you tend to decelerate your stroke. By using a shorter stroke you are able to maintain your tip speed through the cue ball thus reducing the overall speed of the cue ball and still getting the reaction you are looking for.
 
Capt D said:
I think that ShortBusRus has it right. Typically when you try to slow down the same length stroke you used on slower cloth you tend to decelerate your stroke. By using a shorter stroke you are able to maintain your tip speed through the cue ball thus reducing the overall speed of the cue ball and still getting the reaction you are looking for.
Click to expand...

And this kinda of explains John Morra's tendency to come up slightly short on the biggest of stages. I've always thought, that although his stroke is extremely smooth.. It is smooth at the expense of slightly underpowering the CB to the OB. I.e. a VERY slight deceleration on long shots.

If you watch Morra's matches, you will notice his tendency to either slightly miss long shots due to finessing the ball in, or his CB trickles forward slightly on longer shots, indicating a slight deceleration on the stroke. It's how he has built his entire stroke. Contrast this to Efren in his prime.. Efren powers the OB into the pocket, with the CB generally still sliding for some period after OB contact.

Short Bus Russ
 
Playing on Fast Tables

I have seen many players having problems on a fast table. The answer is really simple. You play less angle than you normally would when compared to a slower table. Playing less angle allows you to use the same stroke since more energy is transferred to the object ball. Playing less angle on fast tables also keeps you in line since you can always power up a little and still maintain control if you need to.
 
Hadn't really thought about it from simply playing a lesser angle. Maybe I'm not tracking with you but I would think that would require you to use some throw english on about every shot. Could you elaborate?
 
Capt D said:
Hadn't really thought about it from simply playing a lesser angle. Maybe I'm not tracking with you but I would think that would require you to use some throw english on about every shot. Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...

He means get straighter in on every shot than you would on a slow table. I was just about to post the same thing.Also, play "line" position whenever you can as opposed to "zone" position. Also, as has been mentioned, don't try to shoot soft and "hold" the ball when you can go back and forth across the table
 
I guess I play line position and just understand that if I under or over do it that I am going to have to turn the cue ball loose to some extent.
 
Capt D said:
Hadn't really thought about it from simply playing a lesser angle. Maybe I'm not tracking with you but I would think that would require you to use some throw english on about every shot. Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...

You don't need any "throw English". For example you just play shape for a 10 degree cut instead of a 15 degree cut. This allows more energy to be transferred to the object ball and less remains on the cue ball thereby rolling the about same distance. A shot that would require 25 degree cut on a slow table would only need a 20 degree shot on a faster table. So you just play less angle on every shot than you normally would when playing on a fast table.
 
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TWOFORPOOL said:
I have seen many players having problems on a fast table. The answer is really simple. You play less angle than you normally would when compared to a slower table. Playing less angle allows you to use the same stroke since more energy is transferred to the object ball. Playing less angle on fast tables also keeps you in line since you can always power up a little and still maintain control if you need to.
Click to expand...

I totally get what you’re saying here, but considering that the OP is having issues with his speed control, how do you suggest he play that more precise position? Am I making sense? Sounds good in my head. If he had the ability to control his cue ball that much, he wouldn’t need the advice.
 
Get a shaft with a softer tip (soft) instead of medium.
Loosen your grip.
Do a "softer" follow through.
Practise "the lag" in the beginning numerous times (20-30) to get a feel for the table.

Now train to be able to adapt to different table conditions!
 
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