Poll: Should Jump Shots Be Banned?

[Brozif]

Yes. Most of the basic kicking systems can be learned in five minutes. And in those systems you are hitting the ball in a straight line to the first rail.

I didn't say you could MASTER kicking in five minutes. Please read my post a bit more carefully.

You said there is NO skill in jumping and that the cue does all the work. This is untrue. As to the degree of skill required here is how I define it.

In a normal shot you have to decide on the amount of speed and spin you are going to strike the cue ball with. On a jump shot you have to decide on the amount of speed and spin you are going to strike the cue ball with AND you have to figure out the angle you are going to use and the trajectory. So there are two more variables on top of what is already present with every shot. For a kick shot you have to decide on what speed and spin you will use and where to hit the first rail. How you decide on where to hit the first rail depends on your knowledge and experience. If you know a good kicking system then where to hit the first rail is fairly easy to determine. What happens after that has to do with your knowledge of the table/cloth/conditions.

The PROBLEM as I see it is that people want to make this an either/or proposition. Either kick shots or jump shots but not both.

That's a false premise.

The game is big enough for both and under the current rules both are needed to play it correctly. Any good player invests time to master both and they are foolish if they don't. Sure you could ban the jump cue but all that will do is diminish the quality of play as you will take away a lot of great shots that could have been used. You aren't adding any more shots as all kick shots are always there.

Your passion for this topic is clouding your ability to comprehend what I was trying to say, and so you think I'm personally attacking you!

I never said that you said it only takes 5 minutes to "Master" kicking. I never used the word "Master".

I also never said that there is NO skill in jumping. In fact, I said that it DOES take skill.

I don't want to get into a war of words with you or anybody for that matter. We have different opinions on the subject and that's okay! I don't need, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me.

I do COMPLETELY agree with your last statement! There is plenty of room for both in the game, and that is why I took the time to learn how to jump properly. They are both legal shots and each offers an alternative to the other when one shot is not available.

What I AM saying is that if jumping were to become an illegal shot, I would not be heartbroken!

JB, please don't take anything I say as a personal attack. I have much respect for you, as I do for 99% of the people in this forum. It is good to hear everyone's opinion on different subjects. It is not necessary for everyone to agree with each other. We are not robots!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

That must have been Pat Fleming then because he invented the jump cue. He did it when two-foul nine ball was still in effect so I think it was more because he just figured out that jumping with a shorter cue was easier. Then of course Sammy Jones endorsed the Meucci jump cue and if anyone has ever tried one of those you need a TON of skill to use one. And it's a tiny bit ironic that if Joss Tour bans jump cues since Joss also came out with one of the first commercial jump cues endorsed by Mike Sigel in the late 80s.

Jump cues rock. Like kicking and banking systems they help a player to increase his arsenal of shots. And like kicking and banking systems if half-ass applied then the results will not be favorable. But when mastered then results are spectacular.

I could care less who invented it and i don't care if it's ironic.
But since you are saying Pat did invent it, maybe you should read up on his current rules for his Arena Matchups at the Accu Stats Arena.

http://www.accu-stats.com/arenarules.pdf

It specifically says, "Jump cues and extensions are not allowed."
If he invented it, maybe someone would like to ask him why he doesn't allow them?

I remember when break-jump cues started to flood the market. The Huebler Break jump. The Falcon Break Jump. Then that fat pipe with the tip on it that someone made.

It was a gimmick. And we all know, pool players have to have their gimmicks.
And you know which market ate them up?
The guys who sucked at kicking.
The guys who never in a million years, could kick right.
Gee. Go figure. The target market for a pool gimmick are the lower end players. Just like every other pool gimmick.
From a marketing standpoint, the people who invented the jump cues were geniuses.

But what jump cues have evolved into TODAY is a completely different story.
Now, it's don't get caught without one because your opponent is using one and might beat you with it.
Just like everything else, it's not about just hitting the ball, it's about hitting it in a certain way or pocketing it. The skill set itself has elevated.

But that's besides the point.

Still takes LESS skill to use a jump cue to hit a ball, then it does to learn all the kicking systems to hit a ball (if a kick is possible)

It's a shortcut.

Pool was meant to be played ON the table, not above it.

 

[JarnoV]

I voted yes.

I don't think there's any pressing reason for allowing jump shots. I do understand that some (most?) people like jump shots, at least with regular cues, but I don't think the game needs jump shots. (Cases in point: Earl vs. Shane, Snooker.)

 

[briankenobi]

I don't think the jump shot should be banned from pool. If an individual tourney wants to ban them, like Derby does, then I am cool with that. It makes you play better safties if you know that your opponent can jump. I have seen people say that jumping requires no skill at all. So that means I can pick someone of the street that has never held a pool cue and hand them a jump cue and say "here, jump this ball"? The fact is, it does take some skill and a halfway decent stroke to jump balls. I know plenty of people that can't jump a ball with a jump cue to save their life.

 

[softshot]

anything that damages the equipment should be banned.. and nothing tears up cloth like jump shots.

 

[JB Cases]

I could care less who invented it and i don't care if it's ironic.
But since you are saying Pat did invent it, maybe you should read up on his current rules for his Arena Matchups at the Accu Stats Arena.

http://www.accu-stats.com/arenarules.pdf

It specifically says, "Jump cues and extensions are not allowed."
If he invented it, maybe someone would like to ask him why he doesn't allow them?

I remember when break-jump cues started to flood the market. The Huebler Break jump. The Falcon Break Jump. Then that fat pipe with the tip on it that someone made.

It was a gimmick. And we all know, pool players have to have their gimmicks.
And you know which market ate them up?
The guys who sucked at kicking.
The guys who never in a million years, could kick right.
Gee. Go figure. The target market for a pool gimmick are the lower end players. Just like every other pool gimmick.
From a marketing standpoint, the people who invented the jump cues were geniuses.

But what jump cues have evolved into TODAY is a completely different story.
Now, it's don't get caught without one because your opponent is using one and might beat you with it.
Just like everything else, it's not about just hitting the ball, it's about hitting it in a certain way or pocketing it. The skill set itself has elevated.

But that's besides the point.

Still takes LESS skill to use a jump cue to hit a ball, then it does to learn all the kicking systems to hit a ball (if a kick is possible)

It's a shortcut.

Pool was meant to be played ON the table, not above it.

I can always count on you! Maybe Pat doesn't like the genie he let out of the bottle.

Anyway, it's part of the game and likely here to stay.

I disagree about less skill though. My wife has barely a stroke but she can hit the ball straight. I am sure I can teach her to hit one rail, two rail, and three rail kicks shots in less time than you can teach her to jump five easy jump shots.

But I understand where you are coming from. I made a damn good bundle of money with the jump cues. Surprised the hell out of me when we sold 400 of them the at the first show we brought them out at. I could live without them and my case business would be easier if I didn't have to keep making longer pockets for them. But I don't consider them gimmicks. They are tools that are precisely engineered for the jump shot. Just as we don't play with maces because the modern pool cue is the best implement for playing the game at a super high level so is the jump cue the best implement for that shot.

 

[JB Cases]

anything that damages the equipment should be banned.. and nothing tears up cloth like jump shots.

Jump shots don't tear up the cloth. I used to demonstrate that fact in my exhibitions.

The jump shot flattens the cloth. The reason you see a spot is because the light is reflecting differently at that point. The cloth is not broken. The nap is brought back with a damp terrycloth rag. I can remove 90% of the visible spots even from a table that has been heavily used for jumping balls. I have demonstrated this to room owners hundreds of times.

The BCA, Texas Express, and the WPA have all looked at this aspect and allowed the jump cue. If they had found that it harms the cloth then it would have been banned long ago.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jump shots don't tear up the cloth. I used to demonstrate that fact in my exhibitions.

The jump shot flattens the cloth. The reason you see a spot is because the light is reflecting differently at that point. The cloth is not broken. The nap is brought back with a damp terrycloth rag. I can remove 90% of the visible spots even from a table that has been heavily used for jumping balls. I have demonstrated this to room owners hundreds of times.

The BCA, Texas Express, and the WPA have all looked at this aspect and allowed the jump cue. If they had found that it harms the cloth then it would have been banned long ago.

What about phenolic tips? I'm legit asking. Do you know if phenolic tips on jump cues cause damage to equipment?

 

[briankenobi]

anything that damages the equipment should be banned.. and nothing tears up cloth like jump shots.

I agree with you there, but how often do you perform a jump shot. You don't shoot one that often and a few jump shots here and there is not going to harm your table at least to the point of tearing up the cloth.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

What about phenolic tips? I'm legit asking. Do you know if phenolic tips on jump cues cause damage to equipment?

Cue balls get butchered.

 

[softshot]

Jump shots don't tear up the cloth. I used to demonstrate that fact in my exhibitions.

The jump shot flattens the cloth. The reason you see a spot is because the light is reflecting differently at that point. The cloth is not broken. The nap is brought back with a damp terrycloth rag. I can remove 90% of the visible spots even from a table that has been heavily used for jumping balls. I have demonstrated this to room owners hundreds of times.

The BCA, Texas Express, and the WPA have all looked at this aspect and allowed the jump cue. If they had found that it harms the cloth then it would have been banned long ago.

tell that to my cloth... I have evidence..

You can say whatever you want.. I have SEEN it

 

[JB Cases]

Cue balls get butchered.

They don't harm the cue ball. Been there done that testing with a dozen different cue balls. No problem.

 

[ignomirello]

You should be able to use your own shaft too

You should be able to use your own shaft too

Now that is even harder :smile:

 

[softshot]

I agree with you there, but how often do you perform a jump shot. You don't shoot one that often and a few jump shots here and there is not going to harm your table at least to the point of tearing up the cloth.

how do you practice the shot?

shooting just 1 per day will take a lifetime to master

 

[SUPERSTAR]

They don't harm the cue ball. Been there done that testing with a dozen different cue balls. No problem.

Maybe it's from all the balls getting launched off the table and into the concrete walls or banging into the metal supports of the chairs and tables or hitting the edges of the metal shielding on GC's pockets.

 

[JB Cases]

tell that to my cloth... I have evidence..

You can say whatever you want.. I have SEEN it

Ok. Obviously I can't tell you anything about your cloth. I can tell you about MY cloth and the hundreds of exhibitions I have done over the years. I also owned a pool room so I would be LOATHE to sell something that causes the cloth to be damaged.

From my extensive experience doing tens of thousands of jump shots the cloth does not get damaged from a properly executed jump shot. I used to stab the cue into the cloth to show pool room owners that the cue also does not harm the cloth.

 

[JB Cases]

Maybe it's from all the balls getting launched off the table and into the concrete walls or banging into the metal supports of the chairs and tables or hitting the edges of the metal shielding on GC's pockets.

That's possible. Which is where the skill part comes in by learning how to keep the ball on the table. Similar to breaking and launching the cueball off the table. At some point the player settles down to learn how to control the cueball.

 

[JB Cases]

What about phenolic tips? I'm legit asking. Do you know if phenolic tips on jump cues cause damage to equipment?

No, they do not.

 

[softshot]

Ok. Obviously I can't tell you anything about your cloth. I can tell you about MY cloth and the hundreds of exhibitions I have done over the years. I also owned a pool room so I would be LOATHE to sell something that causes the cloth to be damaged.

From my extensive experience doing tens of thousands of jump shots the cloth does not get damaged from a properly executed jump shot. I used to stab the cue into the cloth to show pool room owners that the cue also does not harm the cloth.

you sell jump cues...you also sell cloth..

sounds like a way to boost sales of both

 

[JB Cases]

Your passion for this topic is clouding your ability to comprehend what I was trying to say, and so you think I'm personally attacking you!

I never said that you said it only takes 5 minutes to "Master" kicking. I never used the word "Master".

I also never said that there is NO skill in jumping. In fact, I said that it DOES take skill.

I don't want to get into a war of words with you or anybody for that matter. We have different opinions on the subject and that's okay! I don't need, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me.

I do COMPLETELY agree with your last statement! There is plenty of room for both in the game, and that is why I took the time to learn how to jump properly. They are both legal shots and each offers an alternative to the other when one shot is not available.

What I AM saying is that if jumping were to become an illegal shot, I would not be heartbroken!

JB, please don't take anything I say as a personal attack. I have much respect for you, as I do for 99% of the people in this forum. It is good to hear everyone's opinion on different subjects. It is not necessary for everyone to agree with each other. We are not robots!

It's cool. Sorry for getting out of line. Now that I can't talk about aiming, can't talk shit about other casemakers, and can't be mean to trolls this is the only topic left I can be passionate about.