Pool halls that discourage play

[pete lafond]

The guy who re-cloths the tables has shimmed the pockets. Even more so he has done a lousy job. The pool hall would have been better off buying Sears pool tables 'cause these gold crowns play like crap. The absolute worst tables I've ever played on and I've played on some bad ones. (sure they play easy during the first month of new cloth, it ends there) On some of the pockets you can hit inside the pocket, never touch the rail and the ball stays deep in the pocket or spits out. Some of the players no longer play there or limit how often they play because they are just to discouraged. My advise to any pool hall owner is to leave tables alone and to keep players playing well and enjoying it. If you want to shim your pockets, limit it to one or two tables. When players play well they keep coming back. I'm ready to quit. Lost confidence and stroke.

 

[sjm]

A pool hall that shims the pockets on all the tables doesn't deserve to have any customers. Even those that shim a couple of tables, which is certainly OK, should shim the pockets only on tables that are nowhere near the entrace or front counter.

 

[GeraldG]

That's crazy. Why would a PH owner shim ALL of his tables? He must not like his clientele too much.

 

[vagabond]

That's crazy. Why would a PH owner shim ALL of his tables? He must not like his clientele too much.

Hi,
In Hollywood Billiards in Hollywood,CA every table is shimed,yet the place is very buisy.The owner is a pool player.
Vagabond

 

[pete lafond]

Hi,
In Hollywood Billiards in Hollywood,CA every table is shimed,yet the place is very buisy.The owner is a pool player.
Vagabond

Good for Holiday billiards and if someone wants to play on a geometrically correct table designed by the manufacturer they can go to another pool hall.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi,
In Hollywood Billiards in Hollywood,CA every table is shimed,yet the place is very buisy.The owner is a pool player.
Vagabond

Hi vagabond,

Hollywood Billiards has one big advantage. Ernesto!!!!! He cares about the work he does. He plays a top flight game. He understands what pocket geometry is. I play at the Vegas Cue Club when I'm there. I love California Billiards when I'm on the left coast. They have significantly shimmed pockets. I love four and one half Diamonds. At least all those tables are honest.

Pete has a point that most people who play at our room one or twice a year don't see or understand. Our Joss event is played on new cloth. The rest of the year, when the "slidings" done, we have to play on them. If you hit a shot one inch short of the pocket, even paced, it hangs. Don't try to hit a ball straight down the rail. You can actually see dents in the jaws of the pockets from balls jarring. Some say get over it. We have twenty five other tables not shimmed. The beauty of these six tables is, they're separated from the rest in a "private" room. The slates separate from time to time. On some tables, the tips of the pockets have flat spots where the shims don't meet the rails correctly. The side pockets "lie". The shims, after being clothed over, make the pocket look wider than it actually is. I've seen way too many shots bounce of the tips of those beauties! Perhaps I've listened to Greg Sullivan too much.

Like Pete, I'm frustrated. A few years ago, running a hundred was relatively "easy". The past five years, once, once I've achieved that goal. My friend and mentor Pat Howey, quit playing in our room. Some will recognize the name and understand the great sadness I felt to loose his competition and instruction. These tables are no fun. They are only frustrating. Worst of all, you only learn bad habits!

 

[vagabond]

The slates separate from time to time. On some tables, the tips of the pockets have flat spots where the shims don't meet the rails correctly.

Hi,
I now understand the situation.I will not like it either.
BTW on what table u play in cue club? I played on 5,6,7,8and 9.
vagabond

 

[GeraldG]

Hi,
In Hollywood Billiards in Hollywood,CA every table is shimed,yet the place is very buisy.The owner is a pool player.
Vagabond

Whether a pool hall owner is a pool player or not is irrelevant. In my estimation it isn't a wise move for your business to shim every table in the house. A very small percentage of your customers are going to be accomplished enough to play successfully on a double or triple shimmed table, and as the cloth and pocket faces wear, it's just going to get more difficult. This becomes nothing but frustration for the vast majority of the customers and they'll just find a PH to play where they can pocket some balls. That translates to lost business.

 

[pete lafond]

Hi,
I now understand the situation.I will not like it either.
BTW on what table u play in cue club? I played on 5,6,7,8and 9.
vagabond

I guess I was too frustrated to explain all in detail as I should have. Thanks Cardiac Kid. I remember when Cardiac Kid was approaching a new level of play (he was always strong) He ran 165 balls against me and everyone in the room was quietly saying how much stronger his game has become. Now I watch him jaw balls that were clearly inside the pocket and he's a soft shooter. All the fun is about gone and there is almost no way to measure your play. Even your stroke changes with yipps.

For anyone's interest, the tables were never real easy before the shims just simply fair. You could finesse the cue ball as your suppose to.

I have quit playing for 3 to 4 months on many occasions due to sheer frustrations. My only salvation was that I was able to play out of town on other tables at times. I no longer travel because I'm a single dad which makes traveling difficult.

My opinion on shims;
1. Only on one or two tables
2. When you occasionally play a tight table your mind more easily adapts to it if you have confidence from playing on fair tables
3. Hand out pocket shims to the fools that falsely state they prefer tight tables leading you to believe that they are so good.
4. Bigger pockets give you more winning shoots to remember and that's what brings back players and creates new interests in playing.

The difficulty in pool is one reason why the popularity diminishes as kids grow older.

 

[Snake]

Hi,
In Hollywood Billiards in Hollywood,CA every table is shimed,yet the place is very buisy.The owner is a pool player.
Vagabond

Actually the tables on the main floor are all shimed (pockets under 4 inches), and they play great. The tables upstaires ( about 15 tables) have regular sized pockets (4 1/2 inches). I prefer playing on the main floor and I love practicing on tables with tight pockects, I think it has enhanced my game.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi,
I now understand the situation.I will not like it either.
BTW on what table u play in cue club? I played on 5,6,7,8and 9.
vagabond

I love "Toby's" table. I think its #8. Only problem for me is the floor isn't flat! I can see why he chose to play there. Its very unsettling if you never played on it before. Strangely, I also like the center "in the pit" table at Pool Sharks. Hope to have the honor of meeting you somewhere this year.

During the BCA's, I was practicing some 14.1 on what must be #9. Johnny Ervolino sat and watched above. I think he was actually excited to see someone playing that lost art! He asked if I wanted to play some. I had to leave for the Riv for my next match. When I returned, he was gone. That game will happen. It would be an honor to have a chance to play a legend.

 

[sjm]

Actually the tables on the main floor are all shimed (pockets under 4 inches), and they play great. The tables upstaires ( about 15 tables) have regular sized pockets (4 1/2 inches). I prefer playing on the main floor and I love practicing on tables with tight pockects, I think it has enhanced my game.

A little better than first reported, but still too many shimmed tables.

Golf has it right. Courses for the general public, as a rule, offer conditions that will allow the casual golfer at least some some measure of success. If every course were set up with US Open rough, tight fairways, loads of water and a whole lot of length, there would be far fewer golfers. Though such conditions might provide a suitable test for the truly accomplished golfer, the typcial golfer like myself (I'm a fourteen handicapper) would just be turned off.

Even super tough courses repsect the fact that it isn' right to force less accomplished players to face the same conditions as the pros. Typically, the casual golfer is permitted to tee it up thirty years further up than a top player would playing the same hole.

How many of you watched the 2002 US Open golf event at Bethpage Black? More than a few of the pros called it the toughest course they had ever played. That course is set up so tough that even from the front tees, it's just too tough for the casual player. I grew up about ten miles from there and often played the course. When you arrive at the first tee, the first thing you see is a sign that says "The Black Course is an extremely difficult course recommended only for highly skilled players". Translation --- unless you're a good player, you may not have fun here. It's true, too, the twenty five handicapper might not break 120 there, and might pull their own hair out.

Golf has recognized that players of all levels should have a chance to succeed. Most poolrooms understand this, too, and maintain their equipment accordingly.

Perhaps a shimmed table should have a sign like the one at Bethpage Black. "This table is an extremely difficult table recommended only for highly skilled players." At least then the casual player would know they might not have fun on that table.

 

[mjantti]

Perhaps a shimmed table should have a sign like the one at Bethpage Black. "This table is an extremely difficult table recommended only for highly skilled players." At least then the casual player would know they might not have fun on that table.

I think this is a great idea. Many casual players can't tell the difference between a tight and a loose table. When they miss more balls on tight equipment, they don't realize the table just has tighter pockets.

 

[sixpack]

I think this is a great idea. Many casual players can't tell the difference between a tight and a loose table. When they miss more balls on tight equipment, they don't realize the table just has tighter pockets.

What I hate about that, is I'll be out with some non-pool player friends and we'll end up on a REALLY tight table. Then when I'm not running out like they expect and I tell them the pockets are tighter, they say "whatever" and act like I'm just making excuses!

Cheers,
Regas

 

[cueman]

The guy who re-cloths the tables has shimmed the pockets. Even more so he has done a lousy job. The pool hall would have been better off buying Sears pool tables 'cause these gold crowns play like crap. The absolute worst tables I've ever played on and I've played on some bad ones. (sure they play easy during the first month of new cloth, it ends there) On some of the pockets you can hit inside the pocket, never touch the rail and the ball stays deep in the pocket or spits out. Some of the players no longer play there or limit how often they play because they are just to discouraged. My advise to any pool hall owner is to leave tables alone and to keep players playing well and enjoying it. If you want to shim your pockets, limit it to one or two tables. When players play well they keep coming back. I'm ready to quit. Lost confidence and stroke.

I couldn't agree with you more about pool rooms not being wise by shimming up so many of their tables. One or two for matching up or practicing on is enough. I wish they would leave them alone but it seems we are in the minority. Look back at the "Tight Pockets equals tight money" thread and you will see what I mean.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com

 

[Jimmy M.]

There was a pool room here in Phoenix a while back that had notoriously big pockets on all of the tables. A number of us pestered the owner enough that he eventually went and tightened up the pockets on one of the tables. Often times, when casual players would walk in and ask for that specific table (not knowing it had tight pockets), the owner would explain to them that that particular table had been tightened up because the better players liked tables with tighter pockets. It didn't discourage them at all. As soon as he told them that, they *had* to have that table (much to the dismay of the owner who was trying to discourage them from renting that table).

 

[cueman]

There was a pool room here in Phoenix a while back that had notoriously big pockets on all of the tables. A number of us pestered the owner enough that he eventually went and tightened up the pockets on one of the tables. Often times, when casual players would walk in and ask for that specific table (not knowing it had tight pockets), the owner would explain to them that that particular table had been tightened up because the better players liked tables with tighter pockets. It didn't discourage them at all. As soon as he told them that, they *had* to have that table (much to the dismay of the owner who was trying to discourage them from renting that table).

We see the same thing at pool rooms that have a triple shimmed table. People like to practice on it and lower level players like it because they always have an excuse for missing. They can blame the table for most every missed shot. I often blame the tight pockets for my missed shots also. I personally don't want an excuse for missing, I just want to quit missing. Keep the main competition tables with normal pockets and I would like it better.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com

 

[Jon]

We see the same thing at pool rooms that have a triple shimmed table. People like to practice on it and lower level players like it because they always have an excuse for missing. They can blame the table for most every missed shot. I often blame the tight pockets for my missed shots also. I personally don't want an excuse for missing, I just want to quit missing. Keep the main competition tables with normal pockets and I would like it better.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com

After all...
This game is supposed to be "fun"...









Isn't it???

 

[cardiac kid]

Folks,

I guess we got off Pete's original reason for being disgusted with the tables in our home room. I guess if you don't play on them regularly, you might not understand. We are not talking about overly tight tables. The shims installed in the tables have caused the pocket geometry to change to the point where balls hit down the rail will not go in without tons of spin. If you try to pace the ball to the pocket, it may hang anyway. It hits the outside shim, goes to the inside shim and stops. If you play the shot with "gusto", it will be rejected with what we call jokingly, "the thudddddda". Perhaps some of you professionals can accomplish this shot on a regular basis. The players around our room are tired of missing shots hit in the pocket. I am as well. The table mechanic is getting somewhat on in years. He doesn't see or understand our frustrations. Perhaps he doesn't care? He gets paid regardless.

 

[longhair]

Folks,

I guess we got off Pete's original reason for being disgusted with the tables in our home room. I guess if you don't play on them regularly, you might not understand. We are not talking about overly tight tables. The shims installed in the tables have caused the pocket geometry to change to the point where balls hit down the rail will not go in without tons of spin. If you try to pace the ball to the pocket, it may hang anyway. It hits the outside shim, goes to the inside shim and stops. If you play the shot with "gusto", it will be rejected with what we call jokingly, "the thudddddda". Perhaps some of you professionals can accomplish this shot on a regular basis. The players around our room are tired of missing shots hit in the pocket. I am as well. The table mechanic is getting somewhat on in years. He doesn't see or understand our frustrations. Perhaps he doesn't care? He gets paid regardless.

The GCI's here at the local University used to reject balls coming down the rail in just this way. They weren't shimmed, though, or even tight. The corner pockets were huge but they didn't like a firmly struck ball rolling along the rail. The pocket faces were too open to the table, too far from parallel. Recently the rubber was all replaced correctly, and they are tighter and truer.