Pool players - born or breed

S

Snorks

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, let's say a guy has taken lessons, practices correctly, plays tournaments, analyzes his stroke properly, gets professional corrections by his coach etc, etc, etc... What level do you think they can get to?

I honestly think that the part between our ears is difficult to master, but also some people for whatever reason some people will never get beyond a C level player.

Born or breed... I would argue most are born with a level that they can achieve but not surpass. Of course age and other factors come into play.

There is a 'natural' player at our pool hall. I have seen him run racks effortlessly. I mean, boom boom boom, done. He gets out of stuff that most cannot even fathom. He plays once/week, never practices, and only enters the occassional tournament which he often places in. He is a natural pool player in every sense of the word. Can other 'fighters' achieve his level.....?? I just can't see it happening.
 
Snorks said:
So, let's say a guy has taken lessons, practices correctly, plays tournaments, analyzes his stroke properly, gets professional corrections by his coach etc, etc, etc... What level do you think they can get to?
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Hopefully get up to best of their ability. Now whether the "best" is A, B, C or my level of playing ... that is unknown.

I've known scratch-level golfer, born to a wealth, who dedicated 3 years of his early 20s only to see if he can make to PGA level. He gave up after 3 years knowing that his best isn't good enough.
 
Neil, I lean toward your optimism that most players (not all) can obtain a proficent level, to play this game. In the early years (before the 1980's), it was talent & guts that made you a Pool Player. Back then (and now too), no one would show you how to do anything, except how to hit the "end rail".

But, today you have several options for learning. You can find good Instructors, You can buy quality training videos, books & DVDs. You can attend Pool Schools.

Most folks don't have the drive, for a long term goal (3-5 years). If they did, there wouldn't be a non-college educated young person.

After you learn how to play, you have to learn how to handle pressure. High Dollar Tournaments and/or Gambling are a good training ground for playing under pressure.

If you learn how to survive in the world of high pressure, you have to know how to manage you finances, so you can survive through the "ups & downs".

You also have to learn how to act. Most "Hot Shots" will never get a chance to endorse a product or represent a company. That is the "class act" for only the few to perform. It takes discipline (long-term) to be the #1 Guy or #1 Gal, whether you win or lose.

When you LOSE & learn something, you will be rewarded in the future. If you Lose & become a Whiner, odds are you won't ever become a real Winner.

It's all about FOCUS. A trained mind is the cornerstone of any Champion, except for the "NATURALS" who are few & far between. They only mask the "Real World", from those that truly try to become a WINNER.
 
i think most pros or short stops have some level of natural talent, but as far as being a prodigy, i believe those are few and far between. also, i think earnest practice and instruction can make up for a great deal of talent that one doesn't initially have, however, i believe the true "talent" is the amount of affection one has for the game. you can find someone who absolutely sucks, but is just infatuated with the game. breathes, sleeps and lives the game. i think this is what allows many to reach higher levels.
 
I agree to some extent.

I believe that anyone, with enough effort, can be excellent at anything. Myself for example, I really haven't been exceptional at anything that didn't require great effort on my part. I think the key to someone like me is that you cannot give up no matter what. I never let my brain become an obstacle for me.

If I believe I can do what I want and I follow through with enough fervor, I achieve beyond what I thought was capable.

However, yes, some people are just naturally good at things. They will always be good at these things without much effort. My goal is to beat them down and show them the value of hard work. ;)
 
Snorks said:
I honestly think that the part between our ears is difficult to master, but also some people for whatever reason some people will never get beyond a C level player.
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I think this is also subjected to your surroundings. People with similar drive and resources can turn out far different based on their surroundings. I think I have achieved a level equal in skill to my peers that I have played regularly, But greatness is contagious. If you are surrounded by hero's you have a better chance getting there to.
 
neil, I couldnt DISAGREE more about your comment that most players, if dedicated can atleast reach the pro level. (in fairness to you, I did paraphrase your statement).

In fact, I know dozens of players who play 8 hours a day, every day for many years, who plateau at the c, b or a level. In other words, these people couldnt be more committed, but will never play close to pro (or shortstop) speed.

Players that reach that level, all have natural talents that 90% of the SERIOUS players don't have or never will be able to aquire. Advanced muscle memory is one example, which is crtical to both shot making and speed control. They also have a built in understanding of angles and an equal, exceptional understanding of how english affects the object ball.

Yes, there is much that can be learned today. Information is much mote accesible. But it remains my contention that one must posses an inordinate amount of natural talent to ever play at that high level.

Just my humble opinion.

Rg
 
NYC cue dude said:
In fact, I know dozens of players who play 8 hours a day, every day for many years, who plateau at the c, b or a level. In other words, these people couldnt be more committed, but will never play close to pro (or shortstop) speed.


Rg
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Not picking on anything in particular. I just found this to be an awfully sad statement, that someone would devote that much time to something and not realize they have no chance.

It's not too late to pick up a book and put down the cue.
 
Koop said:
Not picking on anything in particular. I just found this to be an awfully sad statement, that someone would devote that much time to something and not realize they have no chance.

It's not too late to pick up a book and put down the cue.
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I have no idea what these other players are thinking, but as for myself, i play because i enjoy it. I know exactly where i stand and furthermore, have no misconceptions about my abilities. I get to play a former world champ 8 hours a day, and have for the last year and a half. I enjoy his company as well as the competition. Anyway, im retired, so it passes the time, lol.

Rg
 
NYC cue dude said:
I have no idea what these other players are thinking, but as for myself, i play because i enjoy it. I know exactly where i stand and furthermore, have no misconceptions about my abilities. I get to play a former world champ 8 hours a day, and have for the last year and a half. I enjoy his company as well as the competition. Anyway, im retired, so it passes the time, lol.

Rg
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Don't get me wrong, I know your situation and don't blame you if you are in a position to do so. It's the ones who, like most, are not in that position and still do it. In other words, my post wasn't directed at you but to those that you wrote about.
 
Someone told me that Willie Mosconi was asked this very question and his answer was that players were born, meaning that the top players had natural physical abilities and mental capabilities that allowed them to play the game at the highest level.

Apparantly Minnesota Fats thought the same. He used to say, "Some folks never find their calling. You might have a violinist who happens to live in Alaska and never take up the instrument, or the skier who lives in Hawaii. They never realize their true fate. But ya see, I don't have that problem. I'm the best pool player there is or ever will be."
 
Snorks said:
So, let's say a guy has taken lessons, practices correctly, plays tournaments, analyzes his stroke properly, gets professional corrections by his coach etc, etc, etc... What level do you think they can get to?

I honestly think that the part between our ears is difficult to master, but also some people for whatever reason some people will never get beyond a C level player.

Born or breed... I would argue most are born with a level that they can achieve but not surpass. Of course age and other factors come into play.

There is a 'natural' player at our pool hall. I have seen him run racks effortlessly. I mean, boom boom boom, done. He gets out of stuff that most cannot even fathom. He plays once/week, never practices, and only enters the occassional tournament which he often places in. He is a natural pool player in every sense of the word. Can other 'fighters' achieve his level.....?? I just can't see it happening.
Click to expand...

Good question. I think it is a bit of both.

To become a proficient pool player you need strong hand eye coordination along with an ability to solve problems and puzzles, or you need to be capable of developing these attributes. To what degree you can develop this depends entirely on the potential you are born with.

But that is only part of the equation I think. Even a person with potential will need either a good teacher who has a strong understanding of what needs to be developed in order to perfect their student, or the learner needs to be able identify the skills required in order to improve themselves (ie. strong fundamentals).

I think a lot of people stagnate early in their development, however, due to a a lack of access to qualified instructors which often leads to a lack of knowledge in regards to what they must improve in order to further their game.

Furthermore a lot of people either aren't willing, or simply can't, dedicate the time and practice required to become the best that they can be.

Personally I think anyone can achieve a B player status. Depending on your definition of B player of course.
 
Being a natural makes it easy for someone to be a very good player! But to achieve greatness a natural must also put in the effort to practice! Only then can he have hopes of becoming a great champion.
 
I strongly think that once you want something and that your mind is set, there is nothing un-achievable. Everybody can be a pro and having said that, I know some people will never get past C level. There are the ones who are wishing to be pros and the ones working to be pros.



Some people will never improve their game because deep in them they don't want to admit that their technique is so bad (that it would prevent some improvement) so they don't want to learn how to do it properly because they have been playing the same over and over again. A guy in the federation that I play joined in 2000 and he is still a B player (ranking system C-B-A-AA-AAA, etc) and the guy is in his sixties so he must have been playing pool for a couple of decades and still can get past B...that is lame. I know another guy who was a B in 2004 and now is a AAA, he came third in the semi-pro class event this week-end...and he is in his twenties.
The difference is that one won't ever try to learn 'the good shots' and the other one got trained by professionnals and practices like a freak and I say in 2 years he will be a pro. The B player could take lessons but it wouldn't change anything because deep inside of him, he doesn't want to change his game completely and learn the good way because he has played like that all his life.

Open-mind, have your goals set and be devoted to improve your game while you practice not just to bang balls around and I'm sure pro level can be achieved after some years. People who have natural talent are the one who become pros faster than the rest.
 
Almost every great player started young and had a lot of natural talent. Johnnyt

PS. Let me add that a big percentage of them had a father, relative, or friend that owned a poolroom and had all the free time on the tables from a very eary age. Also a big percentage had a pool table at home and their father played well.
 
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I feel you need to be blessed with good coordination. I grew up with a GCI in the basement and have been playing since then. I know for a fact I was blessed with excelent hand eye coordination because any game I picked up became easy quickly...Here are some of the things I've done, not to brag, but to make the point I was VERY lucky to be super coordinated, not given the gift of diligence! :D

at 16 I was bowling in regional pro events and held a 219 average for our High school team.

I was also #2 singles on our tennis team, and never once went to a practice. My parents played tennis, so I tagged along and it was fun. I never knew what level I played til I tried out for the team. Our team went to the states 3 of those years.

When I quit golfing seriously at around 25/27 I held a 4 handicap at our league, and I played twice a week if the weather was good.

I'm a weak shortstop IMO, but I ran a few hundreds in my day and play strong enough not to be scared of most players. Pool is different, I play because I LOVE the game, and always feel challenged. Probably why I never quit this game like all the others.

I NEVER had enough time to "become" good at all these things or work at it like others did....IMO I was born with it.

Heres how I see it...people who have too work hard at the game I think appreciate it more because they KNOW they need to work at it to get anywhere. People like me who had it easier also can be "perfectionists" because it seems so easy at times, getting out of line or missing seems obserd and will bother you to the point of exploding!....may sound silly, but it's true.

Gerry
 
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