Poolgame: Kill the King

[Pin]

Okay, I think there could be mileage in the no-special-roles game. The chess-style gambits and forks etc. might work...

I'll try to sink your 2 with my 11 but miss: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/1fc77

 

[DaWizard]

Tried to do it on mobile, but I need desktop. On mobile it's a mess.

Im curious what the endgame will be like. You or I end up with the King and maybe 1 or 2 extra balls. But what is the point of the extra balls? I'm not sure if that's really an advantage if the Kings are the only one that can pot each other. My prediction would be that a decent player can easily defend it and it becomes king VS king (not sure how that plays out) or a stalemate.

Two possible new rules came to mind:
1) in a king VS king situation you must hit the other king each shot. Failure to do so is an instant loss.

2) if one player is down to just the King, all the remaining opponents balls get the role of assassin.

I think the last one is interesting because it makes the middle game more important. You are seriously rewarded for potting more balls than your opponent. In chess this would be an endgame of K vs K+pawn that promotes to a Queen. The only difference is that such an endgame in chess is lost. But in this poolgame a good player could still take out the opponents balls or even the King.

 

[Pin]

Tried to do it on mobile, but I need desktop. On mobile it's a mess.

No problem, just go with what's convenient.

Two possible new rules came to mind:
1) in a king VS king situation you must hit the other king each shot. Failure to do so is an instant loss.

Interesting. I don't know whether it's needed or not. In theory, if the non-hitting player leaves their king safe, perhaps the other player can hit a stop shot and leave their own king in roughly the same area, while maybe banking the other king (even multiple rails) for a chance to win.

But on the other hand, that might not work well in practice. I suppose it needs testing. A four rail bank to win might not be much incentive for an average player!

There could be a stalemate rule - three air shots each and it's a tie.

2) if one player is down to just the King, all the remaining opponents balls get the role of assassin.

I think the last one is interesting because it makes the middle game more important. You are seriously rewarded for potting more balls than your opponent. In chess this would be an endgame of K vs K+pawn that promotes to a Queen. The only difference is that such an endgame in chess is lost. But in this poolgame a good player could still take out the opponents balls or even the King.

I like it. It's a valid point that the extra balls in the endgame might not be useful. I suppose you could use them to block the other guy's shot on your king (or obstruct a pocket), but it's not a big reward.

Another idea could be you have to sink all the opponent's non-kings before you can shoot the king. It would be kind of like 8-ball.

 

[DaWizard]

Hehe in the end we end up with 8ball personally I think you should protect your king at all times. Because that also allows for snatching away a win when you're behind.

A stalemate rule would be interesting. Just like in chess where players need to do something to avoid a draw. Or are happy to settle for a draw. On the other hand the K vs K where you must move the other king every turn, can be exciting. Needs testing.

Ive been asking around in Dutch Facebook groups and so far nobody is interested in playtesting I even offered to pay for table rent. The only poolhall in my town is a non competitive one. Only groups of drinking people come to play, so ill have to go to the next big city and find someone willing..

 

[Pin]

I do like situations in 8-ball where neither player has a decent shot on the 8 and try to play safe. It would be interesting to see how it plays out in KtK.

 

[DaWizard]

I two way fail a two way shot: did not make the bank and did not place my king in between the 11 and 2: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/f1db2

 

[Pin]

Sorry for the late reply.

I'll try to combo the 5 into the 2, but miss: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/78a6b

 

[DaWizard]

No worries. Im going to playtest next week! I spammed my old team. Some no longer play, one broke his ankle, but another wants to try. We'll be playing Kill the King and Hot Rail (previously Hot & Cold war). Nobody responded to Hot Rail, but I actually think it's going to be really fun and interesting. Definetly a game for average or advanced players, not for average drunk joe.

I play a safe: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/73873

 

[Pin]

No worries. Im going to playtest next week! I spammed my old team. Some no longer play, one broke his ankle, but another wants to try. We'll be playing Kill the King and Hot Rail (previously Hot & Cold war).

Exciting! Let me know how it goes. Will it be original rules?

My 11 banks your 1 for the corner, but misses https://pad.chalkysticks.com/1981c

 

[DaWizard]

Exciting! Let me know how it goes. Will it be original rules?

My 11 banks your 1 for the corner, but misses https://pad.chalkysticks.com/1981c

Ofcourse! I think well start with the regular rules. Hope to play a couple variations.

I pot your 1 with the 4. The 4 follow the long rail and it ends up here: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/17de8

 

[Pin]

My 11 pockets your 1. From the position in the picture, I think I can use follow, medium speed, and about a 1/2-ball contact to play a 'banana' shot: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/6c486

 

[DaWizard]

Nice shot! I move your King: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/5bd81

 

[Pin]

I'll try to bank your king: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/4c773

 

[DaWizard]

I'll try to bank your king: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/4c773

Wow I left a relatively easy bank there, with that 2 making the pocket very big. You let me off the hook there

I pot your 11 and draw back: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/562c7

So now we're in the endgame and we'll have to see if I have an advantage. In the current rules you can do anything. Roll up to the wall, tug behind the 8, anything.

Lets play like that, but a question for you. Looking at the current situation, which rule would you adopt:

1) draw by repetition: if we both make 2 shots without any of our balls touching, it's a draw. (I think 3 is too much. To keep track and 2 is more imminent)
2) all my balls are assassins now

For me the draw rule is interesting. Draws can be spectaculair. But they say a game should never draw. There should be a winner.
In the current ruleset my extra balls give me some advantage, all though very marginal? Ive got blocked pocket, that's nice. But how to attack you?
It takes quite some effort to get 1 or 2 balls ahead, so this feels like not a real reward. So in my mind rule 2 seems like the most fast 'n fun one.

Lets just try normal rules for now. But what would you think would work?

 

[DaWizard]

Had a very good test night. He was very patient and willing to tweak rules, play again, think about strategy, etc. The perfect play tester, in short. We played 4 games of supersimple and 3 complex games. Well a bit more because we too photos of the starting positions and restarted if either of us blew the game with a bad shot.

Will it replace 9ball? 9ball is safe for now, but it should look over it's shoulder the game is pretty balanced and there are all kinds of tactical opportunities. He liked the role, it adds a bit of story. He was going to introduce it to a couple people that he plays with.

I was enthusiastic, it was fun to play, but also have some negative points.
It is really tactical and also quite difficult. Placement is difficult and requires quite some thinking. The difficulty is a pro and a con. A pro if you like it, but a con to many people, I presume
This is not chilling and shooting some shots, you need to take a look and think. But maybe after 10 games itll be easy.

On our level the games ended pretty abruptly. You make a bad shot and down you go. And that sucks if you just took 10 minutes to minutely place every ball.. Hence the restarts from photos. Bad players, like us, could play with multiple lives for their King though.

Edit: we did have some good games as well! I was quite satisfied with my shooting and some sharp safeties, with some blunders sprinkled in between.

But the game itself is pretty fun. It took a little but at some point we saw just fine what ball threatened another. We had various types of games: slow, quick, an assassination, 4 balls (all assassin, good rule) vs king but the other king won. The saboteur was fun.

Tired and off to bed, later maybe more.

 

[Pin]

Sorry for the long delay in responding. It's been a busy week.

Well done on the playtesting. It sounds like you got a lot from it. The abrupt punishment for a mistake is interesting. I think in our games we'd seen that in terms of losing individual balls, but not in terms of losing the whole game.
I imagine placement could get quicker if people learn what they like and usually just repeat it.

In your questions about the endgame, I like both your proposed rules (2 'empty' shots each is a draw and everyone's an assassin). Another option would be to always require a player hit another ball (could be one of his own, or the wall), during the whole game.

For the extra balls at the end, if you were playing several games one advantage could be you get a point for every ball left on the table (if you win). No incentive in a single game though (unless you were gambling on it!)

In our game, I'll shoot your 2 and run up table: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/3fa89
Your 4 is helping me hide here, which is an extra reason for a rule change!

 

[DaWizard]

Sorry for the long delay in responding. It's been a busy week.

Well done on the playtesting. It sounds like you got a lot from it. The abrupt punishment for a mistake is interesting. I think in our games we'd seen that in terms of losing individual balls, but not in terms of losing the whole game.
I imagine placement could get quicker if people learn what they like and usually just repeat it.

In your questions about the endgame, I like both your proposed rules (2 'empty' shots each is a draw and everyone's an assassin). Another option would be to always require a player hit another ball (could be one of his own, or the wall), during the whole game.

For the extra balls at the end, if you were playing several games one advantage could be you get a point for every ball left on the table (if you win). No incentive in a single game though (unless you were gambling on it!)

The abrupt losses came from taking risks with the King. It might have to do with us being new to the game and we made bad shotchoices?

Another rule that might solve some things: each turn you must move the ball of your opponent. If you fail to do this the opponent gets a point. These points can be used to purchase balls that are out of play. So if I made a couple fouls, and your 3 has been potted, you can buy it and place on the table. It would be the only way a ball can return.
With this rule there's no need for a draw rule and it creates a bit more action. Also you can choose to foul, but it is costly.

For the endgame it seems good to make everything a Kingslayer. We had one endgame. He had K and 3 balls vs my lone king. I did get a shot on his king but missed..

 

[DaWizard]

Sorry for the long delay in responding. It's been a busy week.
[...]

In our game, I'll shoot your 2 and run up table: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/3fa89
Your 4 is helping me hide here, which is an extra reason for a rule change!

No problem! Yeah, as we predicted it seems that having an extra ball is not really advantageous in this ruleset. I wouldnt even know how I could use it to my advantage. Because whereever I play your King, you can just play it safe, easily. Even with the rule thatmove one of my balls it's not so hard. If my 4 would be a Kingslayer it will still be a bit difficult to chase you down, but at least there's a real advantage now.

I just do this: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/a1c51

On another note: the word 'Kingslayer' doesn't feel right. It's a bit childish, it feels. "Assassin" I like much more. But then we need another name for the secret killer. Agree? You're a native speaker.
Alternatives: (it should be descriptive and easy to pronounce and understand internationally)
- secret assassin
- ninja
- hitman
- secret hitman
- backstabber
- shadow ...
- guerrilla ...
- Gary

 

[DaWizard]

And should jumpshots be allowed?
Jumping over the 8, the wall, not. But what about other balls?

 

[Pin]

I'll shoot the 4, try to hide behind the 8, but leave you a shot: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/3fe33

It would be simplest to have an assassin and a secret assassin. I think that keeps the roles clear.

But 'backstabber' gave me an idea: what if you could take over one ball from the other player's group (nominated before the start of the game). Like a double-agent. If you kept it secret, you could pick a time in the game to start shooting it as your own ball, and the other guy ceases to use it.

It's probably over-complicating things, but I like the idea. If it couldn't shoot the other guy's king, it would be powerful but not too powerful.

Jump shots - I'm not sure. It feels like something to test after everything else has been decided.