Position Play (food for thought)

[Bob Jewett]

This is the shot we set up. He made it on his second try. (Notice the English used in the diagram.)

CueTable Help

For this position, the player has to be ready to play the shot at least three ways:

As shown, cushion-first with right side spin that takes on the second cushion.

With dead ball, going twice across to return where the OB was.

With slight draw or left english to go twice across and end above the side pocket.

Of the three shots, the one with delayed english, while very pretty and startling, should probably be the last one to work on.

 

[Andrew Manning]

For this position, the player has to be ready to play the shot at least three ways:

As shown, cushion-first with right side spin that takes on the second cushion.

With dead ball, going twice across to return where the OB was.

With slight draw or left english to go twice across and end above the side pocket.

Of the three shots, the one with delayed english, while very pretty and startling, should probably be the last one to work on.

I agree, Bob, I would shoot option B every time in this situation. Every time I try option C, I scratch cross-side, and I don't think I can successfully execute that first shot more than 50% of the time. 50% is fine if you're showing it off as a trick shot or prop bet, but not in a competition situation.

-Andrew

 

[DaveK]

The way it is shown here, at my height, I would have to use a mechanical bridge with the CB in the position shown.

Just curious as to whether most of you would put the CB here and use a bridge or move it farther back up table where no mechanical bridge is needed?

That's a bridge shot for me as well, I'd line it up straight and draw the cue ball back a smidgeon (although a simple stop shot is also an excellent option imo). That 8 ball is no problem. I understand and respect the concept of crossing-the-ideal-line vs. down-the-ideal-line position, but this is a very simple run out, especially from ball-in-hand, so why complicate it with a 2 rail position shot ?

Dave

 

[renard]

For this position, the player has to be ready to play the shot at least three ways:

As shown, cushion-first with right side spin that takes on the second cushion.

With dead ball, going twice across to return where the OB was.

With slight draw or left english to go twice across and end above the side pocket.

Of the three shots, the one with delayed english, while very pretty and startling, should probably be the last one to work on.

I agree that to make the ball with delayed English is the tougher of the three choices. My Wie diagram should have shown a frozen eight ball and it does not. I think the shooter here has to think of the percentages with each shot as far as his/her skill level goes. If the first choice is 40% success, 2nd 70%, and 55% the shooter also has to look at the same percentages for the eightball leave from the resulting choices. Lets say those are 60%, 2nd 45%, and 40% for the third. This leaves the shooter with 50%, 57%, and 47% chances respectively.

Every player has had someone come up to them after a missed shot and said why didn't you do this. The light comes on and the only thing you can say is, "I didn't think of that or in a nutshell of a description I didn't think it would work."

This is all food for thought... sometimes we have more choices than we believe.

 

[renard]

When the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, there is a standard way to predict the path of the cue ball called the "two times fuller" system. It is explained in Byrne's "Standard" book and in the February 1996 (1996-02) article at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

Playing with left side may help the throw, but as Dr. Dave (Alciatore) has pointed out, too much spin will tend to slip and not throw the ball as much.

Using the two-times-fuller system would allow you to navigate between blocker balls, or in the example shown, to go accurately to the cushion to the left of the 5 ball.

Nice Link Bob, good info there...

 

[renard]

The way it is shown here, at my height, I would have to use a mechanical bridge with the CB in the position shown.

Just curious as to whether most of you would put the CB here and use a bridge or move it farther back up table where no mechanical bridge is needed?

Simply extend the cue ball position to where you can get to it like this:

CueTable Help

 

[renard]

That's a bridge shot for me as well, I'd line it up straight and draw the cue ball back a smidgeon (although a simple stop shot is also an excellent option imo). That 8 ball is no problem. I understand and respect the concept of crossing-the-ideal-line vs. down-the-ideal-line position, but this is a very simple run out, especially from ball-in-hand, so why complicate it with a 2 rail position shot ?

Dave

Exactly, it is simple. Two rails is not complicated. As I pointed out to GADawg keep the same line just put the cueball to where you can get to it. The point is the cueball remains in the line longer with two rails over time and distance. If you hit the two rails softer or harder than you intended you are still in line.

If you try to cross the line and you execute a stop shot by mistake or the thing really takes off with too much draw you are out of line.

I don't know about you but I rather be "ON" the game winning ball and the closer to straight in the better.

 

[renard]

That is what I thought about at first, but you usually want to be on the other side of the ball (instead of short side) as to not interfere with the side pocket points.

Very good point!

 

[renard]

OK, heres another one. Most people look at this opening break in eightball and pick solids understandably. As the stripes have a cluster without an easy way to break it up. Then when choosing solids they simply make the one ball and wonder how they can get position on the six with the remaining balls on the table.

CueTable Help

 

[renard]

The answer is to bump the six off the rail by caroming the one off of it. When running a rack try to take care of the problem balls as soon as possible.

CueTable Help

 

[DaveK]

Exactly, it is simple. Two rails is not complicated. The point is the cueball remains in the line longer with two rails over time and distance. If you hit the two rails softer or harder than you intended you are still in line.

If you try to cross the line and you execute a stop shot by mistake or the thing really takes off with too much draw you are out of line.

I don't know about you but I rather be "ON" the game winning ball and the closer to straight in the better.

I suppose this is insurance if your draw control is not so good, but my point stands, a stop shot is fine, it's an easy 8 ... a lot of draw is fine, it's an easy 8 ... medium draw is OK (just stay away from behind the 14), it's an easy 8 ... 2 rails is fine (just stay away from behind the 14), it's an easy 8 ... I don't need to be straight on that 8, it's an easy 8.

Your example of a crossing vs down-the-line might make more sense in another example, one where the line is actually important, like when you need to move the cue ball after potting the next ball. Shape on an easy 8 ball is easy and should not be complicated imo. Shape on a difficult 7 such that you can get shape on the 8 is another matter.

Dave

 

[renard]

I suppose this is insurance if your draw control is not so good, but my point stands, a stop shot is fine, it's an easy 8 ... a lot of draw is fine, it's an easy 8 ... medium draw is OK (just stay away from behind the 14), it's an easy 8 ... 2 rails is fine (just stay away from behind the 14), it's an easy 8 ... I don't need to be straight on that 8, it's an easy 8.

Your example of a crossing vs down-the-line might make more sense in another example, one where the line is actually important, like when you need to move the cue ball after potting the next ball. Shape on an easy 8 ball is easy and should not be complicated imo. Shape on a difficult 7 such that you can get shape on the 8 is another matter.

Dave

Your right, these are just examples. You guy's can pick apart the diagrams thats fine. It is the school of thought that's important...

 

[DaveK]

Your right, these are just examples. You guy's can pick apart the diagrams thats fine. It is the school of thought that's important...

Exactly right. Present an example where the risk is great when crossing the line and the benefit is great when following the line. That will get the point across. Using an example where there is little risk or reward to either method invites confusion and arguement ... food for thought to those who want to teach.

Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Present an example where the risk is great when crossing the line and the benefit is great when following the line. ...

Perhaps like the first shot described in http://www.onthebreaknews.com/November06-08.htm where the simple position is more likely to go wrong. It helps a lot on such shots to draw out the region of acceptable/preferable position. In the case of the original drawing above, the region is not restrictive enough to force a preference for the path that uses cushions.

 

[ez2h8]

That is what I thought about at first, but you usually want to be on the other side of the ball (instead of short side) as to not interfere with the side pocket points.

Here is a tip about shooting rail shots past the side pocket points. I learned this from Hall of Famer Billy Stover and will never forget it as it's a slight of hand.

I stuck him one time in 9-ball with the 9 on the rail just about 2 inches south of the side pocket and the cueball about 2 inches behind it on the same rail. Both balls are glued to side rail. Seeing he was 70+ years old at the time, he walks to the table and ever so slighty pulls back on the side rail on the opposite side of the side pocket he has to shoot past (as if you look down on the 9ball to see if it is touching the rail). Then he walks around the table, lines up the shot and shots it in the upper corner, past the points of side pocket. He looks up and me and smiles ear to ear. Then he comes over to me and tells me how he made it past the opposite rail point. By pulling back on the rail, it pulls that point in ever so slight, but enough to let the 9ball roll by. He said if you are playing an idiot, you can actually put your hand on the point (compressing it back) while looking to see if the 9ball is touching. Most opponents will be so busy making sure you are not touching the 9ball, they don't realize you are compressing or pulling back the point.

ez

 

[Drew]

Here is a tip about shooting rail shots past the side pocket points. I learned this from Hall of Famer Billy Stover and will never forget it as it's a slight of hand.

I stuck him one time in 9-ball with the 9 on the rail just about 2 inches south of the side pocket and the cueball about 2 inches behind it on the same rail. Both balls are glued to side rail. Seeing he was 70+ years old at the time, he walks to the table and ever so slighty pulls back on the side rail on the opposite side of the side pocket he has to shoot past (as if you look down on the 9ball to see if it is touching the rail). Then he walks around the table, lines up the shot and shots it in the upper corner, past the points of side pocket. He looks up and me and smiles ear to ear. Then he comes over to me and tells me how he made it past the opposite rail point. By pulling back on the rail, it pulls that point in ever so slight, but enough to let the 9ball roll by. He said if you are playing an idiot, you can actually put your hand on the point (compressing it back) while looking to see if the 9ball is touching. Most opponents will be so busy making sure you are not touching the 9ball, they don't realize you are compressing or pulling back the point.

ez

I don't see how this wouldn't be legal in the first place...It's not like you're moving the ball.