Position without thinking

T

tsollman

Registered
First let me start by saying Hi to everyone. I have been reading posts for quite some time, just recently able to post. I have been playing for several years. I have been doing some self analysis lately.
I have noticed when I shoot my best I don't really think about position, I look the table over and just focus on my shot at hand. My position on the next shot will just happen. Is this a good thing??
I recently commissioned a cue to be made by Steve Klapp. It took about 3 months for completion. I will have pics available this coming week. I just wanted to share the experience I had. It was by accident that I even found out about his cues. I was in galesburg, IL and was having lunch at Billiards on the Main when I noticed a guy playing 0ne Hole. He had about 5 cues laying on the adjacent table. I meandered over that way and he told me to hit with one. That's exactly what I did. If you ever get the chance to hit with one of his cues, do it. I started discussing a new cue with him immediately.
I have to be one of the worst customer's when it comes to having a new cue made. I constantly change my mind and am a little ocd when it comes to grade of wood, Steve can attest. He never once complained or was negative throughout the entire process. Steve is probably as nice as anyone you will ever meet. I hope everyone enjoys the pics when I get them posted. For those who don't get a chance to shoot with one you are missing out.
The woods I used were ebony, macadamia, quilted maple. The cue has 8 points on the forearm, 8 on the butt. The ringwork is ebony and macadamia. Cue weight 18.6 oz. Hits like a dream.
I was shooting with an old custom Ray Schuler cue. I know I am a newbie at this site. what difference that makes, I haven't quite figured out yet. It seems new people tend to get a lot of flak with posts.
Thanks for reading my post and any positive comments are appreciated, negative ones we all know where they can go.
 
I know exactly what you mean. It seems like all I have to do is glance at a spot on the table and I not only get there, but It's also the perfect spot to get to the next ball, even if I'm not thinking about my next ball. 1, 2, 3, even 4 rail postion shots just seem to happen.

For me, this only happens after I've had 3 to 5 drinks and at most once every 2 or 3 months. I would love to know how to be on that kind of automatic pilot all the time as far as postion goes.
 
very cool post tsoll. some 600 poster asked me on my 7th or so post who the hell i was. well shithead, if i could only reach through that screen, get a hold of your fat nostrils and pull you through to here i'd let you know..

you've read, so you know; there's many a lot of neat people here, and of course the excema kind like elsewhere. ignore the super opinionated bleedy scabs that will loose sleep only to prove you wrong.

and please show that stick yeh?

(look 3 balls ahead)
 
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Funny, I'm the opposite.

When I'm in dead stroke (admittedly, a rare occurrence these days) I don't even think about the shot in front of me. I'm only thinking about position. When I'm in the zone, the shot is already in as far as I'm concerned. All I think about is where I want whitey to go afterwards. And.... somehow.... magically it does!
 
tsollman...Actually, you are doing something that we teach at pool school. If you have a repeatable stroke (which means you can strike the CB EXACTLY where you're aiming, at whatever speed you want), all you have to do, is concentrate on aiming at the correct place on the CB and OB...and move the cuestick in a straight line, to pocket the OB. Shape takes care of itself. Part of what you're experiencing, with your new cue, is a period of 'assimilation'. It almost feels like it's part of your arm! That's a nice feeling...and what we teach at pool school, is how to keep that feeling from going away!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

tsollman said:
First let me start by saying Hi to everyone. I have been reading posts for quite some time, just recently able to post. I have been playing for several years. I have been doing some self analysis lately.

I have noticed when I shoot my best I don't really think about position, I look the table over and just focus on my shot at hand. My position on the next shot will just happen. Is this a good thing??

I know I am a newbie at this site. what difference that makes, I haven't quite figured out yet. It seems new people tend to get a lot of flak with posts.
Thanks for reading my post and any positive comments are appreciated, negative ones we all know where they can go.
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When I'm in dead stroke (admittedly, a rare occurrence these days) I don't even think about the shot in front of me. I'm only thinking about position. When I'm in the zone, the shot is already in as far as I'm concerned. All I think about is where I want whitey to go afterwards. And.... somehow.... magically it does!
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i think mizerak was like that. i think said he never thought about pocketing the ball - that was a given. he was only thinking about position and english.
 
tsollman said:
...
I have noticed when I shoot my best I don't really think about position, I look the table over and just focus on my shot at hand. My position on the next shot will just happen. Is this a good thing??
...
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If it's exactly what you are saying, I don't think it's a good thing. This is what I think of this situation. When you aren't at your best, you are doing something wrong. Like you said, when you aren't at your best, you are thinking about your position. Thinking about your position isn't a wrong thing to do. If you want your game to a higher level, you should think about position. The only problem is, most peoples are thinking about position, but forget to make the ball. You should forget about the position if you know how to play it. When you are at your best, you don't think about position, you are focussing to make the ball. And that's exactly the differences. If you only focus on the shot, and hoping that the position on the next shot will be good, you aren't having control over the CB, you are just having some luck, and you can't always be lucky.

This is how I do it. First I focus on the next position. After I know exactly how to play it, to get the right position, I'm starting to forget that position. You don't have to know the right position, the only thing you should know is how to hit the CB with what kind of power. Than I start to focus on making the ball. I already know how to hit the CB to get the right position, so why should I still think about the position. When I make the ball, the CB will automatically go to the right position for the next shot. By doing this, you will have control over the CB, without losing the most important part, that's making the balls.

To explain why you are at your best, by not focussing on the position. When you are a decent player, you can almost make all kind of balls in all different situations. You aren't at your best because you are having good position. You are at your best because you are only focussing how to make the balls.

Just to make it more clearer to you. Years ago I started to play pool, just for fun. I didn't know how to play position. The only thing I do was making balls, and I was quite good at it. Sometimes I was lucky and almost run a table. A year ago I started to learn the game, and I falled back. I couldn't make the simpliest ball. That's because I was too focused on position. Recently I discovered how to deal with focussing on position and focussing on making balls. I did some nice progress, beating peoples which I never beat before.
 
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tsollman said:
First let me start by saying Hi to everyone. I have been reading posts for quite some time, just recently able to post. I have been playing for several years. I have been doing some self analysis lately.

I have noticed when I shoot my best I don't really think about position, I look the table over and just focus on my shot at hand. My position on the next shot will just happen. Is this a good thing??

Thanks for reading my post and any positive comments are appreciated, negative ones we all know where they can go.
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The conscious mind and the unconscious. Think of your very first shots ever with a pool stick or your first time executing jump shots. Every stroke was a learning experience and the conscious mind was at the forefront. You had to make a conscious effort in giving numerous instructions to your body in a check list to perform. (IE: "Form the bridge, stroke straighter, don't dip the tip, don't go to right either, strike the cue ball in the middle, line up better to contact the object ball, how hard is too hard? How soft is too soft....")

When the conscious mind is working it makes it tougher on the unconscious to operate effectively. Think of the working mind as having a set bandwidth. The data that flows works fine until there is too much data. If the mind has conscious and unconscious data to deal with it bogs it down.

Fortunately this is also the process we use to learn. Repetitive motions that are performed soon become recognized by the mind as data space hogs. The mind simply programs that repetitive motion to become automatic. Also keep in mind that more than the motions themselves can become automatic. When we see a simple pattern on the table thousands of times it becomes a no brainer. That is, our mind can make that thought process "automatic" as well.

So the process is walking up to the table we take in the layout before us. We analyze and determine what pattern is best. Then we choose the best choice for position on the present shot. This is the conscious mind at work. It lays down the blue print we follow in each new situation that arises. It is used before the shot happens, then the unconscious takes over. The unconscious is primarily instruction and feedback from the mind to the body and vice versa. It can be described as a feel for the shot at hand.

But there are times we enter the zone we call "dead stroke." Many times we don't remember much of the rack we ran because the recall of events is primarily a conscious function. We spend almost all our shooting time in the unconscious frame of mind. Thus the term we hear sometimes, "He was unconscious."

When you describe the feel of the whole process it would be in a word, "seamless." You don't recognize any transition from the conscious to the unconscious. The reason it is seamless is there are no problems that activate the conscious mind. If there is a problem, any problem the conscious mind is brought to the forefront. It must analyze and lay a blue print to resolve the issue.

Keep it mind that you cannot will yourself in a match to stay away from conscious thinking. Difficult layouts, difficult opponents, and difficult situations can change a great shooting night into a struggle. It's all in how we train ourselves to handle these adversities that makes the difference.

Motivation, heart, concentration, and preshot routines are a few of the deciding factors that keep us more in the unconscious state. To answer your question is it a good thing? Heck yes!!!! :D
 
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I think when someone is in dead stroke they're on autopilot. It may seem like you're not thinking about anything but actually it's the opposite, you're thinking about everything, you're just not over thinking it. For the most part, when I have a break run out I don't even remember breaking that rack and can't for the life of me remember who shot the 1 ball. It's nice when you fall into a zone like that.
MULLY
 
renard said:
Keep it mind that you cannot will yourself in a match to stay away from conscious thinking.

Motivation, heart, concentration, and preshot routines are a few of the deciding factors that keep us more in the unconscious state. To answer your question is it a good thing? Heck yes!!!! :D
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Here's a little trick I learned, and it may sound silly, but it works. I used to carry a needle and thread in my case. When I was at a tournament I would sit down for a few minutes before my match and just start threading that needle. Put the thread in and pull it out and keep doing it over and over. I had a small eyed needle with a thicker thread so it made it tough. If you're the type of person that can do that without getting irritated you'll find that all the concentration it takes to get that thread into the eye of the needle really just erases everything out of your mind and you go into your match really focused. I know, it sounds crazy, but it worked for me. I learned that in a book, I think it was called "The Inner Game of Tennis." Sounded strange to me but I gave it a shot anyway and it helped me clear my mind so I stuck with it.
MULLY
 
mullyman said:
Here's a little trick I learned, and it may sound silly, but it works. I used to carry a needle and thread in my case. When I was at a tournament I would sit down for a few minutes before my match and just start threading that needle. Put the thread in and pull it out and keep doing it over and over. I had a small eyed needle with a thicker thread so it made it tough. If you're the type of person that can do that without getting irritated you'll find that all the concentration it takes to get that thread into the eye of the needle really just erases everything out of your mind and you go into your match really focused. I know, it sounds crazy, but it worked for me. I learned that in a book, I think it was called "The Inner Game of Tennis." Sounded strange to me but I gave it a shot anyway and it helped me clear my mind so I stuck with it.
MULLY
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I read the same thing (in the book), though i never tried it.

I have tried opposite hand chalking that George Fels mentions in his book. (To tap into the unconscious feel that we have lost complete contact with at times.) Chalk your stick with the hand your unaccustomed to chalking with. Or when warming up, shoot three draw shots with exacting position with the opposite hand.
 
tsollman said:
First let me start by saying Hi to everyone. I have been reading posts for quite some time, just recently able to post. I have been playing for several years. I have been doing some self analysis lately.
I have noticed when I shoot my best I don't really think about position, I look the table over and just focus on my shot at hand. My position on the next shot will just happen. Is this a good thing??
Click to expand...

If the balls are going in the hole and you are getting position on the next shot then I'd say it's a good thing. Personally I think about making the ball and getting position mostly when I get out of line, and I get out of line a lot. Also, it depends somewhat on the layout of the table. Some layouts are tougher than others.

Welcome to the board, most of the people here are great people and in the couple years I've been on this board I have learned a lot of things that have helped my game.
 
here is my cents regarding the topic. the more I think about the next position, the higher the tendency that I will miss the shot and the CB ends up way out of position for the next shot. the more you focus on pocketing the OB at hand, the more likely you the CB would end up just fine for the next shot.

I almost had a great game last night. pocketing some very tough shots but missed a lot of crucial easy ones. need to go back to the drawing board and need some practice runs. but most importantly, I need a personal pool table.
 
Curious

Scott Lee said:
tsollman...Actually, you are doing something that we teach at pool school. If you have a repeatable stroke (which means you can strike the CB EXACTLY where you're aiming, at whatever speed you want), all you have to do, is concentrate on aiming at the correct place on the CB and OB...and move the cuestick in a straight line, to pocket the OB. Shape takes care of itself. Part of what you're experiencing, with your new cue, is a period of 'assimilation'. It almost feels like it's part of your arm! That's a nice feeling...and what we teach at pool school, is how to keep that feeling from going away!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Do you teach pyramid zone or triangle zone position? How to drop the CB in on the long side of the short angle , short side of the long angle ,sighting the last rail to fall into the zone,,,, no matter how you land in the zone the CB is in best position for natural play most times. I think this is of utmost importance especially for ( rythms ) Freestroking is nice,,until it catches up to you and have to make shot after shot beacuse you are losing the CB. I don't see many quality players who don't pay attention to precisely the right angle they want coming in. They may not know what the systems are called but they use it,and use it well.
A game of repitition,,after a while the angles become easier to see,,,zone position takes a few seconds at best to analyze. I am a little curious on how shape takes care of itself without looking at all that is going on when we should be thinking a few balls ahead. Getting the perfect angle on all balls.
Pool is a beautiful game when played perfectly with the cue ball.....the other 15 balls are just something to use while you play pool with the cueball.
 
Still Curious

SmoothStroke said:
Do you teach pyramid zone or triangle zone position? How to drop the CB in on the long side of the short angle , short side of the long angle ,sighting the last rail to fall into the zone,,,, no matter how you land in the zone the CB is in best position for natural play most times. I think this is of utmost importance especially for ( rythms ) Freestroking is nice,,until it catches up to you and have to make shot after shot beacuse you are losing the CB. I don't see many quality players who don't pay attention to precisely the right angle they want coming in. They may not know what the systems are called but they use it,and use it well.
A game of repitition,,after a while the angles become easier to see,,,zone position takes a few seconds at best to analyze. I am a little curious on how shape takes care of itself without looking at all that is going on when we should be thinking a few balls ahead. Getting the perfect angle on all balls.
Pool is a beautiful game when played perfectly with the cue ball.....the other 15 balls are just something to use while you play pool with the cueball.
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Not to get into stroke,power ( ball click 1-4 )natural or redirecting the CB to obtain best angle for shape,,,usually with punch or spin,,,, whatever it takes...Still curious if you teach 2 or 3 sided tri. zone position play. Thank you
 
Position comes from great visualization. That's part of our three pre-shot routines.
1. THINK IT
2. SEE IT
3. DO IT

Thanks....SPF+randyg
 
randyg said:
Position comes from great visualization. That's part of our three pre-shot routines.
1. THINK IT
2. SEE IT
3. DO IT

Thanks....SPF+randyg
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I think that is quite an over-simplification.


There is a LOT more to accomplishing correct position than visualization....not the least of which is endless hours working on cue ball direction/distance control.

Thinking it and seeing it are, of course, necessary but DOING IT is a "whole nuther story."


Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
I think that is quite an over-simplification
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nope, that's all there is to it. randy just put himself and blackjack out of business. there's nothing else to add, the mystry and dilemmas of pool are all solved.

you're a golfer aviater. it works pretty much the same way there don't it.
 
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