power draw

[gerryf]

I must be missing something. I can do that stroke with an open bridge, and my cue doesn't leave the bridge?? it does require dropping my elbow though, which is something i try not to do.

I do know some Phillipino players that raise or lower their body during the stroke. i.e. aiming at the bottom of the cue ball, then on the delivery stroke, bending their knees to lower the back of the cue. Or aiming slightly higher at the cue ball, then straightening their knees to raise the body and the back of the cue.

 

[straightline]

As long as the cue is angled downward, tip rise has to be some combination of bad balance and errant propulsion. Obviously a closed bridge will negate the rise.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I must be missing something. I can do that stroke with an open bridge, and my cue doesn't leave the bridge?? it does require dropping my elbow though, which is something i try not to do.

I do know some Phillipino players that raise or lower their body during the stroke. i.e. aiming at the bottom of the cue ball, then on the delivery stroke, bending their knees to lower the back of the cue. Or aiming slightly higher at the cue ball, then straightening their knees to raise the body and the back of the cue.

Hi Gerry,

1) Were you able to consistently sink both balls in the far pocket, as diagrammed?

2) I believe you are agreeing with me, and disproving PJ's assertion further. After all, you'd need to use a closed bridge to swerve for this shot without added elbow drop, right?

Thank you.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

As long as the cue is angled downward, tip rise has to be some combination of bad balance and errant propulsion. Obviously a closed bridge will negate the rise.

Agreed, and I'm detailing a stroke some pros use so that a swerve is accomplished without excessive stick rise, following past/through the cue ball for this upward stroke as described. This is an intentional change from angled downward to angled steeply upward. The closed bridge does more than "psychological help" as claimed by PJ.

 

[FranCrimi]

As long as the cue is angled downward, tip rise has to be some combination of bad balance and errant propulsion. Obviously a closed bridge will negate the rise.

I don't think so. If you read Bob Jewett's post, the snooker players have touch places ---5, I think --- where the cue is held in place by the player's body in order to prevent the tip from rising out of the open bridge on power draw shots.

 

[straightline]

I don't think so. If you read Bob Jewett's post, the snooker players have touch places ---5, I think --- where the cue is held in place by the player's body in order to prevent the tip from rising out of the open bridge on power draw shots.

Ok but something has to hold that thing down.

 

[gerryf]

Hi Gerry,

1) Were you able to consistently sink both balls in the far pocket, as diagrammed?

2) I believe you are agreeing with me, and disproving PJ's assertion further. After all, you'd need to use a closed bridge to swerve for this shot without added elbow drop, right?

Thank you.

1. Yes, i can do that shot fairly consistently, and i normally use an open bridge. I do use a loop bridge if the cue ball is just far enough from the rail, that i can't lay my hand down flat. .

2. I normally keep my elbow pinned, and if i do the shot with the cue level, i can see that the impact with the cue ball will cause the tip to climb due to the upward deflection. The cue doesn't leave my bridge, but if i shot it hard enough it might leave the bridge and then fall back down, but of course the cue ball is long gone by then.

3. I don't ever aim at the base of the ball then raise the tip on the last stroke, even though i sometimes see other players doing it. That seems to invite inconsistent hitting for me. I have the tip pointing at the impact point, then do a pendulum stroke to hopefully have it hit where i aimed it.

4. But if i try the method you described, aiming at the base of the cue ball, then raising the tip to hit with follow, i have to drop my elbow. I thought about trying to raise my bridge instead during the last stroke to bring the tip up, but that doesn't work well for me. Bending my knees to raise or lower my body seems not to work well either.

4. I do have my chin on the cue, and the cue brushing my chest.

5. I watched some snooker on the weekend, and i don't think i saw a loop bridge being used except a rail bridge. I also watched Jeffrey de Luna playing 10-ball and he did an amazing deep screw using an open bridge.

6. I agree with Patrick. I think it's personal preference.

 

[FranCrimi]

Ok but something has to hold that thing down.

I don't understand. Weren't you trying to say that if the tip rises out of the v-bridge hand, it's due to a faulty stroke or something off-balance?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The closed bridge does more than "psychological help" as claimed by PJ.

lol

Is this the part where you tell us what it does?

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

I don't understand. Weren't you trying to say that if the tip rises out of the v-bridge hand, it's due to a faulty stroke or something off-balance?

Yes and that a closed bridge will attenuate that issue. Note executing the shot correctly is another matter entirely. Something else that occurs to me is those snooker guys use very tiny tips which probably allow hitting the ball further out; ball size not withstanding.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Something else that occurs to me is those snooker guys use very tiny tips which probably allow hitting the ball further out; ball size not withstanding.

Don't think so. The miscue limit is 1/2 radius from center on either size ball with any size tip.

pj
chgo

 

[8BALL EDDIE]

Personally, I find "power draw" to be rather simple...

1. It is important to remember the cue ball is a sphere and not a flat object. Therefore, the desired target of the ball (center, top, bottom, left, right) can sometimes vary, depending on the angle of contact.
2. The very basic fundamental needed to make the cue ball draw is to apply backspin.
3. When trying to achieve draw with a cue that is parallel with the table and aimed at the extreme bottom of the cue ball, the tip can actually slide under the bottom curve of the cue ball and cause a miscue/lifting motion, negating true backspin.
4. Players often psyche themselves out when trying extreme draw. Knowing you're attempting to receive major feedback from the cue ball, players will jab/punch/poke with their forward stroke, rather than delivering the necessary smooth follow through.
5. It is important to adequately adjust how hard you hit the cue ball depending on the distance between the cue ball and the object ball. Also, angled shots may impede the process.

Similar to how Francisco Bustamante and Efren Reyes do it, and how Mike Massey did it in the clip shared by Patrick Johnson, I find it easiest to do it with a slightly angled cue. Without trying to keep a "level cue" parallel to the table, I slightly elevate the back end of my cue and adjust my bottom targeting on the cue ball accordingly. Then, with a straight stroke, I shoot all the way through the cue ball - angled down to the point of basically making contact with the cloth of the table. My speed is dictated by the distance the cue ball must travel to make contact with the object ball, and how far I need the cue ball to draw back.

This is just my humble contribution to the thread. Like any aspect of one's game, it takes patience and practice, in order to get a natural feel for it. I hope this helps.

 

[straightline]

Don't think so. The miscue limit is 1/2 radius from center on either size ball with any size tip.

pj
chgo

Ok. Will a 13mm tip get you there? I know an 11 or less has a better chance. (?)

 

[BilliardsAbout]

1. Yes, i can do that shot fairly consistently, and i normally use an open bridge. I do use a loop bridge if the cue ball is just far enough from the rail, that i can't lay my hand down flat. .

2. I normally keep my elbow pinned, and if i do the shot with the cue level, i can see that the impact with the cue ball will cause the tip to climb due to the upward deflection. The cue doesn't leave my bridge, but if i shot it hard enough it might leave the bridge and then fall back down, but of course the cue ball is long gone by then.

3. I don't ever aim at the base of the ball then raise the tip on the last stroke, even though i sometimes see other players doing it. That seems to invite inconsistent hitting for me. I have the tip pointing at the impact point, then do a pendulum stroke to hopefully have it hit where i aimed it.

4. But if i try the method you described, aiming at the base of the cue ball, then raising the tip to hit with follow, i have to drop my elbow. I thought about trying to raise my bridge instead during the last stroke to bring the tip up, but that doesn't work well for me. Bending my knees to raise or lower my body seems not to work well either.

4. I do have my chin on the cue, and the cue brushing my chest.

5. I watched some snooker on the weekend, and i don't think i saw a loop bridge being used except a rail bridge. I also watched Jeffrey de Luna playing 10-ball and he did an amazing deep screw using an open bridge.

6. I agree with Patrick. I think it's personal preference.

Thank you for the details. I appreciate the feedback. Clearly, you think carefully through all aspects of your game.

PJ may have said it was a personal preference to use a closed loop bridge, but also (falsely) claimed the closed bridge only provides psychological help for any player.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

lol

Is this the part where you tell us what it does?

pj
chgo

I've given several examples now of strokes where playing professionals use the closed loop bridge for stability or to prevent post stroke fouls.

My point is that claiming a closed loop bridge is a mental crunch only for 100% of players who use it, is an insult to pros and pro trick shot artists who use it with success.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've given several examples now of strokes where playing professionals use the closed loop bridge for stability

But you've never said what "stability" does for the shot. It doesn't prevent miscues, so what does it do? Do you have anything in mind other than "pros do it, so it must mean something"?

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

Yes and that a closed bridge will attenuate that issue. Note executing the shot correctly is another matter entirely. Something else that occurs to me is those snooker guys use very tiny tips which probably allow hitting the ball further out; ball size not withstanding.

Yes, I can see how you would consider the reasons for the tip rise to be due to flaws, but I think you should also take into account the shooting styles of each player --- particularly if they're advanced. In the case of beginners or intermediate players, yes you may be right. But with advanced players, what may seem to be a flawed stroke in power draw shots, suddenly becomes a superior stroke in high spin shots. Efren comes to my mind. I wouldn't consider him known for his power draw shots, although he could execute them if he needed to, or a great breaker, however, his ability to move the ball softly with spin is the best in the world. Same guy, same stroking style, but no one criticizes his stroke when he does that.

My point is that each player has their point where force begins to affect the movement of the cue. With advanced players, is it really a flaw or just an element of style?

 

[straightline]

Yes, I can see how you would consider the reasons for the tip rise to be due to flaws, but I think you should also take into account the shooting styles of each player --- particularly if they're advanced. In the case of beginners or intermediate players, yes you may be right. But with advanced players, what may seem to be a flawed stroke in power draw shots, suddenly becomes a superior stroke in high spin shots. Efren comes to my mind. I wouldn't consider him known for his power draw shots, although he could execute them if he needed to, or a great breaker, however, his ability to move the ball softly with spin is the best in the world. Same guy, same stroking style, but no one criticizes his stroke when he does that.

My point is that each player has their point where force begins to affect the movement of the cue. With advanced players, is it really a flaw or just an element of style?

You mean then that an advanced player has technical zones and not weaknesses?

 

[FranCrimi]

You mean then that an advanced player has technical zones and not weaknesses?

I've seen enough of your posts to know that you understand what I mean. I'll just leave it there.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...those snooker guys use very tiny tips which probably allow hitting the ball further out; ball size not withstanding.

Don't think so. The miscue limit is 1/2 radius from center on either size ball with any size tip.

Ok. Will a 13mm tip get you there? I know an 11 or less has a better chance. (?)

I don't get your question, but tips of all sizes "have the same chance" - they can all hit the ball the same distance from center without miscuing.

Background info: The miscue limit (1/2 radius from center ball) is right where the curved surface of the ball is angled 30 degrees away. Not coincidentally, cue tips are shaped so that their curved surfaces include at least 30 degrees on each side so they can match surfaces with the ball out to that limit - nickel and dime curves work for pool and snooker tips respectively.

pj
chgo